Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

@merrymouse
Ah, as in you think it sidelines women! Apologies, totally read that wrong lol, read it as women on the sidelines and thinking '' who are they then ''
As you were

[quote Quaggars]@merrymouse
Ah, as in you think it sidelines women! Apologies, totally read that wrong lol, read it as women on the sidelines and thinking '' who are they then ''
As you were [/quote]
Do feel free to engage with the content of that post.

I've already said I don't agree that it sidelines women, not sure what else you want me to say on that subject to be honest!

@Quaggars

I've already said I don't agree that it sidelines women, not sure what else you want me to say on that subject to be honest!

No, you have not explained why it doesn’t sideline women.

Gendered expectations punish women whether they conform or don’t conform. Men are rewarded.

A pronoun sign off is formal acceptance of identification with a gender box.

It’s saying ‘don’t treat me like a human being/accountant/vet, please view me through the lense of gender’.

How is that not harmful to women?

I've already said I don't agree that it sidelines women, not sure what else you want me to say on that subject to be honest!

Why don't you think it does?

An employer who promotes the declaring of pronouns will be looking for opportunities to promote their woke credentials. This leads to ignoring women's issues and achievements as they conflict with the message they are trying to project.

🦗

I have an unusual first name that’s often assumed to be a man’s name. If I ever want to, I can clarify my sex by adding my (feminine) middle name, or adding a title e.g. Ms. Why should I be coerced to include my pronouns in every email?

Besides, I don’t care which pronouns people use for me when I’m not there. Also, I can’t control what other people think of me. No one can, and it wouldn’t be healthy to obsess over this.

I've already said I don't agree that it sidelines women, not sure what else you want me to say on that subject to be honest!

Oh I'm getting the hang of how this debate works. Therefore my response is "Yes it does. Because I say it does"

There, I think I have argued my side really well.

@Quaggars

I've already said I don't agree that it sidelines women, not sure what else you want me to say on that subject to be honest!

Do you think that women, as a class, are treated equally and fairly at work?

I’m just wondering what the proportions of trans people to gender critical people are, in terms of weighing up the inclusiveness quotient and the risk of “outing”.

If I were put in the position of being required to state my pronouns, I would be outed as being gender critical, and I think about how that has gone for Allison Bailley, Maya Forstater, Jess de Wahls etc. My job and my livelihood are clearly at risk of detriment.

If a trans person were put in the position of being required to state their pronouns, they are at risk of being outed and suffering detriment, albeit the law is much more clearly on their side (not necessarily how it goes in practice, I’m aware).

So both parties are at risk, no?

Safest all round to keep professional and require only business related information - name, job title, employer, contact details. Then go wild on your socials and have all the pronouns and personal affirmations in Papyrus that you see fit!

Another thought - how would turning down someone for a tender etc work from an equality law pov if you did it due to finding their pronouns-in-sig wildly unprofessional?

On the face of it it looks like belief discrimination - their belief in gender identity is likely to be just as protected as its converse, the gender-critical belief. It's irrational and deeply sexist but not 'bad enough' to be 'unworthy of respect' - check out many religious beliefs for comparables. So I'd be concerned about those saying they've turned down people for work due to pronouns being open to a discrimination challenge. Although, I wonder if you'd be OK as you deemed the manifestation of the belief to be inappropriate, not the belief itself. I understand this is what Maya's tribunal is now about - the belief is confirmed to be protected, did she manifest it reasonably or not?

i.e. to pick another belief as an example, being pro-Palestine is also probably protected, it's a widely held and reasonable belief, even if some vehemently disagree with it. Would it be discriminatory to turn down someone for a contract if they had #freepalestine and a flag in their email signature? Probably not, because it's an inappropriate manifestation of the belief for the work context. I don't know if a court would agree, but I view pronouns-in-sig the same way. It's not just a neutral statement of belief, it's a request (or demand) that others participate in the belief. In fact, it probably goes further than my hypothetical #freepalestine sig - they're just inappropriately waving their belief around, not putting pressure on others to join in.

Didn’t Contrapoints get cancelled for quite a while for speaking against the exchanging of pronouns? They aren’t universally liked by trans people, even on a voluntary basis.