Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

Why would he want her to stop? 🤷‍♀️

@Etorih

Your friend shouldn't be trying to impose his GC beliefs on someone over whom he's in a position of power.

He's the boss. He is in a position of power when it comes to his business. And if he doesn't want someone to demonstrate their gender ideology credentials in his work place he's more than entitled to do that. That's not forcing his beliefs on anyone. Merely informing the employee that he doesn't want their gender ideology beliefs forced on others within the time he's paying for.

Putting pronouns in your own signature isn't forcing a gender ideology belief on others. Others are free to ignore them. She isn't asking anyone else to add pronouns.

'why would he want her to stop'

Weeeellll, displaying political aliegiences is generally frowned on at work.
If he alienates his customers he will lose money
Gender Idology is massivly misognyistic (and homophobic) so there's that too.

I've never worked for a company that didn't have a template and guidance for email signatures, mail shots or letters (like block, arial 10 or whatever). It was part of the induction when I worked in HR, explaining what the corporate style was and how to use or where to find the guidance.

There was usually someone in the place that would police it and would advise people who were doing advertising or marketing drops where the logo could go, what colour it could be. In one bank we used to have a list of colours our logo could change to for advertising literature if it clashed with the predominant colours used in the direct mail shot and woe betide you deviated from that.

It just makes for a branded look. I run my own little on line business and I wouldn't allow an advertiser to change my colours - that's my brand.

I'm surprised companies don't have that policy - saves a lot of grief to be able to say your signature should be title (if necessary), first name, last name, department or whatever the company deems necessary.

I'd tell the new recruit that it's company policy not to have any political or ideological statements in work email signatures. I regard adding pronouns as completely unprofessional. It's as inappropriate as putting your position on Brexit or lockdowns or vaccination at the end of your signature. Unnecessary and provocative

@MsFogi

Show her the company email format. If she fails to use it let her and her pronouns go during/at the end of her probation period.

If this was the other way round, and someone was being asked to use a company template including pronouns against their will, would you so freely be advocating dismissal for non-compliance?

As a client, I wouldn’t do business with a company who contacted me with pronouns in their signature because I consider it a political statement.

I wouldn’t deal with someone who put their chromosomes in their signature like some GC feminists do on Twitter either.

Sex and gender politics is a contentious political issue and I don’t want to know your position on it from a professional communication.

I worked with a woman I had never met with a unisex name, we only ever used email or IM - it was quite a while before I found out she was female if she had her pronouns listed I would have known straight away how to refer to her when referring to her in her absence.

Why do you need to know someone's sex in a professional capacity?

It's been proven to go against women too.

As long as they can do the job it's no-one's business what sex someone is.

If it's not obvious or relevant I use 'they' and if I'm wrong so what, it just doesn't matter.

I think the fact that pronouns is viewed as an inclusive of transwomen fascinating.

Should we also add our race to our signatures to be inclusive to ethnic minorities?

And maybe also our sexuality (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual/pan sexual etc) to be inclusive ?

If not, why not?

Should we also add our race to our signatures to be inclusive to ethnic minorities?

And maybe also our sexuality (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual/pan sexual etc) to be inclusive ?

If not, why not?

Because you don't generally refer to people by their race or sexuality.

You'd say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to her yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the lesbian yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the black woman yesterday?'

If this was the other way round, and someone was being asked to use a company template including pronouns against their will, would you so freely be advocating dismissal for non-compliance?

I think the company would have difficulty enforcing such a policy because of

1. right to privacy
2. negative impact on women

As others have said, send out a template for all staff to follow. Have a quiet word about it not being professional to state your sexual preferences in business correspondence and that "cis" promotes gender stereotyping which is not helpful in gaining equal opportunities for women in the workplace.

@Arbadacarba

Should we also add our race to our signatures to be inclusive to ethnic minorities?

And maybe also our sexuality (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual/pan sexual etc) to be inclusive ?

If not, why not?

Because you don't generally refer to people by their race or sexuality.

You'd say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to her yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the lesbian yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the black woman yesterday?'

I'd hope in this day and age we would be saying "Jane called, did you send over the invoice yesterday?"

Putting pronouns on emails is akin to saying "I believe there is a fundamental difference between women and men and I support an ideology which has been used to oppress women - and indeed men - for centuries". It in not way is anti-trans and it's quite frankly childish to say so. If people feel it's important to know what gender they identify with, they can sign their signature with Ms/ Miss/ Misses. There is no need to state your allegiance with sexist ideologies and, of course there will be some clients who are put off - both those who are more old-fashioned and just don't like it, but also those who feel genuine fear at the increased risk to women and the demolition of the protections women have fought for for more than a century. It would make me think twice about having any dealings with the company and I am not anti-trans even if I will never understand what is means to 'feel like a woman' (said as a female person who has no problem with being female but does not believe in this group think ideology).

If the employee is largely dealing with a conservative client base, this means they will not be in a position to "out" themselves as trans. And they will be living in their "assigned sex at birth". So at best the employee is showing off her "cis" privilege by being allowed to announce her perfectly obvious pronouns. If she were trans and still using her former name, then yes, it might make sense for John to say "she/her" in her signature.

Basically, it would be like a straight person making the entire convent announce their sexuality. The nun can't admit she's a lesbian can she? So who is going to end up feeling shit at the end of this? Who will end up feeling they scored a few woke points? So who is it actually for?

similar to wearing a crucifix or something - she's allowed to express her belief. Time enough to challenge it if she makes any steps in the direction of telling everyone else to wear crucifixes.

I'd think it was massively inaprooritate for a person to put a cruicifix in their sgnature though. Wear a badge if you must or a snazzy shirt, if the dress code allows. But there is usually a protocol for signatures.

I still don’t really see the difference… I mean does it really matter how people refer to you when they never met you? I have been misgendered by people I’ve never met. That is ok. They won’t do it again. I would assume it is the same with pronouns. They refer to people with the wrong pronouns first and then when out right not again.

I think pronouns is a bit like showing that you are on the right side. In that sense it makes sense to also state race and sexuality if we state pronouns.

If there's a corporate template for e-mail signatures then I would suggest that she uses it rather than using whatever she feels like.
Although at a former workplace the template was ignored by many, including senior management.

@Arbadacarba

Should we also add our race to our signatures to be inclusive to ethnic minorities?

And maybe also our sexuality (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual/pan sexual etc) to be inclusive ?

If not, why not?

Because you don't generally refer to people by their race or sexuality.

You'd say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to her yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the lesbian yesterday?'
You wouldn't say: 'Miss Smith called, did you send the invoice to the black woman yesterday?'

This is why we should be pushing for gender neutral pronouns and honorifics. Takes the whole thing away.

I find gender ideologists pushing the idea that the best way to support people who don’t meet gender norms is to place more emphasis on gender….surprising

This is why we should be pushing for gender neutral pronouns and honorifics. Takes the whole thing away.

Yes, that's one solution. What are your suggested words - 'Mx' for honorific and 'they/their' as pronouns?

@merrymouse

If this was the other way round, and someone was being asked to use a company template including pronouns against their will, would you so freely be advocating dismissal for non-compliance?

I think the company would have difficulty enforcing such a policy because of

1. right to privacy
2. negative impact on women

I also think there is a difference between compelling someone to express a political statement which they may not agree with, and asking people not to express any political statement at all.

I would definitely judge someone negatively if they had pronouns in their email sign off - I generally find it's a useful way of weeding out idiots.
I agree that it's as bad as referencing religion in your sign off, in fact many years ago a colleague was told not to do this - she would sign of stating she had you in her prayers. It was deemed inappropriate.

This is why we should be pushing for gender neutral pronouns and honorifics

Or people who don’t identify with the norm can let people know their own pronouns etc

‘Sincerely Miss Daisy Pumpkin’ is enough, the only time it would matter if it was a case of ‘sincerely Mx Dave Johnson (they/them)’

Yes! Mx and they /them

And “citizen of the world” instead of race?
And “sexual/non sexual being” instead of sexuality?

Just so we normalise everything and put less emphasis on what not is conforming. Then every time we see an email signature and they all are alike, we will know that everyone is equal.

Women are disadvantaged when attention is drawn to their sex.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

And pronouns can get in the fucking sea fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

But if everyone had the same pronouns they wouldn’t be disadvantaged.

And we could add an inclusive race marker as well, and an inclusive sexuality marker. Just so that we all know that we all are against bullying, racism and all sorts of phobias as soon as we get an email. It would make us feel good inside.