Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

@Orf1abc

Why would he have a problem with this? What harm does it do to anyone?

Stop creating issues where they don't exist. The employee is just as entitled to her inclusive views, as her boss is to his less inclusive views.

It’s not ‘inclusive’ to state pronouns.

It just indicates a belief that it’s good to categorise people by gender.

There are many reasons why others would not want to share this information, including a wish for privacy and concern about endorsing gendered prejudices.

I don't think I've ever needed to use someone's pronouns on email at work. Using their names works just fine. And you do generally know the name of the person you're emailing. So absolutely not necessary to bring your whole selves to work. Just bring the part that gets the job done and leave the politics / pronouns at home.

I worked with a woman I had never met with a unisex name, we only ever used email or IM - it was quite a while before I found out she was female if she had her pronouns listed I would have known straight away how to refer to her when referring to her in her absence

This is really normal. If it comes up in conversation somebody just corrects you. It’s not offensive. Unless her sex had a bearing on her job, it isn’t a problem.

Stmaryskettle there is no advantage for a woman to declare she is female at work. She will be treated better by those she is emailing if they think she's a man! So I don't see the great problem if someone thinks she was male.
An easier way would be to write (Ms) or (Mr) after your name is you wanted to let them know. That has the added advantage of giving them a title for correspondence.

@thirdfiddle

I'd write it off. Similar to wearing a crucifix or something - she's allowed to express her belief. Time enough to challenge it if she makes any steps in the direction of telling everyone else to wear crucifixes.

People don’t usually share their religion in work emails.

[quote yeahbutnaw]@merrymouse

It's not inclusive to force someone to remove pronouns from their signature.

It just indicates a belief that it's bad to be accepting of trans people.

Good god get a grip girl.[/quote]
No, you are wrong.

Insisting on pronouns forces people to declare a gender identity which they may not feel happy to share, or which they may feel is a lie.

Good God get a grip, person whose gender identity/sex/age I will not assume because it is irrelevant to this discussion.

It just indicates a belief that it's bad to be accepting of trans people.

No it doesn't indicate that at all. You really don't need to share anything at work at all apart from your ability to do your job. That's it.

I find it cringy when I see it. It doesn't make a good impression (to me, but I doubt I'm alone). It's like someone signing off with 'God bless'. They are inflicting their views on others.

Interesting to see it coming from the other direction. Let us know how he approaches it!
I decline anyone on LinkedIn with a she/her (always women), I get lots of unsolicited or friend-of-a-friend requests as I work for a company that lots of people are interested in.

I find it cringy when I see it. It doesn't make a good impression (to me, but I doubt I'm alone). It's like someone signing off with 'God bless'. They are inflicting their views on others.

Totally. Over sharing does not make for good working relationships.

@McDuffy

Interesting to see it coming from the other direction. Let us know how he approaches it! I decline anyone on LinkedIn with a she/her (always women), I get lots of unsolicited or friend-of-a-friend requests as I work for a company that lots of people are interested in.

Me too. It’s always young men and women stating the bleeding obvious too... oddly enough, the people I am LinkedIn with who are tran(sexual in old money) don’t do this.

What's that smell?

An easier way would be to write (Ms) or (Mr) after your name is you wanted to let them know. That has the added advantage of giving them a title for correspondence.

This is what I'd suggest as a compromise. The recipients of her emails can then address her with her preferred title if they wish to be formal in their reply. A female title also indicates that she/her would be appropriate without indicating that the company supports gender ideology.

(If she likes to sign herself as 'Mx' (she/her) or if her title is 'Dr' you do have a problem, though.)

Woman and trans woman. Totally understandable terms with no ambiguity. Why does woman need a word in front of it when describing an adult female?

To exclude trans men. In genderist ideology it’s not enough to have a word to group all the people who “feel like a woman*” together, it must also become impossible to group all the adult human females together under any one word.

I think it's as bad to force people to remove their pronouns as it is to compel them to include them.

Your friend shouldn't be trying to impose his GC beliefs on someone over whom he's in a position of power.

if her title is 'Dr' you do have a problem, though

No you don't! It's an advantage rather than the opposite. It attracts a greater level of professional response.

Best not to have a reminder of your sex offered up to the sexists out there.

Putting your pronouns in your email signoff is like hanging English flags from all your windows.
Technically its not racist at all, but your political statement it still going to make poc uncomfortable.

I think its quite well acknowledged now even by proponents of gender idology that its a mens sex rights movement, and that is going to make a lot of women uncomfortable.

He should be honest with her. It sounds like she's been instructed that this is what she should be doing by someone she has trusted, someone should explain to her that out in the world many people care about womens and childrens rights and aligning herself this way could harm her proffessionally.

Your friend shouldn't be trying to impose his GC beliefs on someone over whom he's in a position of power.

Personal expressions of beliefs should not be included in your work email signature.

I worked at a small company that grew. The company decided the style of signature, and we all followed the format. That included me deleting my qualifications from my signature.
I still had my qualifications, and if anyone asked I could tell them, or in fact offer the info if relevant, but they weren’t included in every email because my employer said the company style was X, which excluded them letters. This is the same.

@IsItShining

if her title is 'Dr' you do have a problem, though

No you don't! It's an advantage rather than the opposite. It attracts a greater level of professional response.

Best not to have a reminder of your sex offered up to the sexists out there.

I agree. But I meant that convincing the employee to remove her pronouns from her signature wouldn't be so straightforward.

If she's Ms/Miss/Mrs, then she/her is redundant.

[quote yeahbutnaw]@merrymouse

It's not inclusive to force someone to remove pronouns from their signature.

It just indicates a belief that it's bad to be accepting of trans people.

Good god get a grip girl.[/quote]
Only because pronouns have become a visible badge of allyship. So it’s not about the pronouns really, it’s about making public obsequience to one particular and very rigid form of gender ideology.

A much better way to support trans people, female people and frankly just people in general would be to encourage everyone to use gender neutral pronouns, not as a statement that “I am neither woman nor man”, but as a statement that “my sex/gender isn’t relevant”.

Your friend shouldn't be trying to impose his GC beliefs on someone over whom he's in a position of power.

He's the boss. He is in a position of power when it comes to his business. And if he doesn't want someone to demonstrate their gender ideology credentials in his work place he's more than entitled to do that. That's not forcing his beliefs on anyone. Merely informing the employee that he doesn't want their gender ideology beliefs forced on others within the time he's paying for.

[quote yeahbutnaw]@merrymouse

It's not inclusive to force someone to remove pronouns from their signature.

It just indicates a belief that it's bad to be accepting of trans people.

Good god get a grip girl.[/quote]
Do you normally call grown adults "girl"? Do you call men "boy" as well?

If no to "boy" do you realise how misogynistic you're being.?

Show her the company email format. If she fails to use it let her and her pronouns go during/at the end of her probation period.