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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

999 replies

FannyCann · 27/06/2021 11:14

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

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AnyOldPrion · 27/06/2021 19:49

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind.

What is a “male mind” if it isn’t a mind (whatever that is) in a male body? A thought in the head of a male person is a male thought. Even if his thoughts are telling him he isn’t male, that is a male thought.

How can you know what’s in someone’s head? How can a man know what it feels like to be a woman? It’s literally something he cannot experience.

Your friend may be lovely. You may feel perfectly safe.

But single sex spaces were fought for and there was a reason for that. It’s partly based on a desire for privacy and dignity, but also because of the enormous and consistent difference in criminal behaviour patterns and strength between men and women.

Those things do not go away when a man claims he is a woman. The only study to examine criminal offending concluded men continued to offend in a male pattern, including violent offending, even after a meaningful medical transition.

That should have been a red flag for all those gaily signing away women’s rights. As an absolute minimum, women’s safety should have been a consideration when moving men into their spaces was discussed. It wasn’t.

And now here we are in this impossible situation, where even some women put the feelings of their male friends over those of every other woman and child that might be using that space.

Third spaces are a viable way and should have been implemented as soon as men started to demand access to women’s spaces, or started to use them without permission. A society that does not recognise the importance of women’s rights and doesn’t even consider women when they are principally affected is a deeply misogynistic society.

GNCQ · 27/06/2021 19:49

19:22Tistheseason17
I do not feel threatened by her.

Well good for you. That's possibly because you've known your friend for a while, know them well etc.

To most women, any random male person showing up in their women only space is a violation of their boundaries and it would be frankly obnoxious of your friend to use them.

A male who identifies as a woman is still a male, they're just one who identifies as a woman.

I don't care how many "followers" this Spa penis person has on Instagram. Most people don't have a clue who they is, all those women see is a massive male person demanding these women see their penis. It's outrageous.

lazylinguist · 27/06/2021 19:52

It's totally irrelevant how you feel about your friend. I don't feel threatened by my husband. But that doesn't mean I'd expect other women to be fine with him in a women's changing room. Whether he felt male or female in his head would make no difference to that whatsoever.

EsmaCannonball · 27/06/2021 19:55

The concept of male and female minds is incredibly sexist and regressive, and, regardless, someone being female in their mind (whatever that codswallop means) is irrelevant if they are male in material reality.

WoolOfBat · 27/06/2021 19:58

I find it the cognitive dissolve here so difficult. My husband is 6 foot five and used to play rugby. He is really nice. I don't expect other women to want to be alone in a changing room with him when he is naked.

Even our DD gets it. I have asked her, if daddy feels like a woman tomorrow, would you be happy for him to take you swimming and shower and change and be naked around your friends. I can reveal that was a no! A BIG no!

CriticalCondition · 27/06/2021 20:06

I do not feel threatened by her

I don't feel threatened by my friends' husbands or my father in law or my male work colleague. I know them all well and they are all lovely people.

I still don't want them in loos or changing rooms I'm using. I want dignity and privacy when I'm in a state of undress and dealing with my female body.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/06/2021 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SheldonesqueDoesNotBelongHere · 27/06/2021 20:17

For me, it boils down to this.

A decent person would never make another human being uncomfortable however they chose to identify.

Faffertea · 27/06/2021 20:18

I’m only on page 5 so apologies but @Tistheseason17 can you see the problem here? Regardless of the feelings of women who don’t mind, what about the feelings of women who do?
Why does the need or want of male people (regardless of gender identity) get to override the feelings of female people? Can you not see how wrong it is to say that the feelings of some males should be given priority of that of females to the extent that it will exclude those female people from their own spaces? That is misogyny plain and simple.

SheldonesqueDoesNotBelongHere · 27/06/2021 20:20

And for me? A man choosing to flaunt his penis in what should be a safe place for females simply cannot be a decent person.

Looksgood · 27/06/2021 20:21

*PandorasMailbox

The reviews are brutal grin

www.yelp.com/biz/wi-spa-los-angeles-2?start=40

Maybe it's me but I only see glowing reviews.
Have recent reviews been removed?*

That's what I'm seeing too - are reviews touching on this problem being censored?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 20:26

That's what I'm seeing too - are reviews touching on this problem being censored?

They're still there, you need to click through the 'highlighted reviews' to get there but they've not been removed (as yet).

Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles
Looksgood · 27/06/2021 20:29

Thanks @EmbarrassingAdmissions

EyesOpening · 27/06/2021 20:29

@GNCQ "Maybe it's me but I only see glowing reviews.
Have recent reviews been removed?"
If you look underneath the reviews, there's a link that says "627 reviews that are currently not recommended" but I did see bad ones in the main part too

EyesOpening · 27/06/2021 20:31

I guess that using the sort by lowest rating will show the ones in the main part www.yelp.com/biz/wi-spa-los-angeles-2?sort_by=rating_asc

NewlyGranny · 27/06/2021 20:32

Tistheseason17, I haven't insulted you - NAMN, eh? - in fact I'm perfectly happy to hear how comfy and unthreatened you feel about your mtof trans friend! So you do you - have your friend round to get their kit off in your home wherever and however you choose.

Just don't speak for all womankind and invite any male who fancies flashing little girls and old ladies and everyone in between into women-only changing spaces. Because they aren't yours to give away or issue invitations to the way your home is. It's not complicated and it's not unkind and it's not unreasonable for women of all ages to want their changing spaces penis-free. The law says so, too, and it's a right and a protection that was hard fought for by women long dead who had things much tougher than you and I and the rest of us do now.

You have every right to flounce if you feel misunderstood, and nobody can stop you, but if you read this, check out what it meant to Victorian women to live their public life "on the leash of the bladder" and try engaging that lovely empathy you have for them. It will help you understand why it's important.

peadarm · 27/06/2021 20:32

@Tistheseason17

I am not naive, dim or disingenuous and I'm unsure what throwing these insults at me is supposed to achieve.

I simply hold a different view and I'm not going to insult others for their views.

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind. With clothes on you would not know. I do not feel threatened by her.

My experiences differ to others but that does not mean I am right or wrong in my views. Shouting me down and name calling does not validate opposing views. I do not promote violence against women or anyone. Not every man or trans female is out to get us.

I'm leaving this discussion as having insults thrown at me is not fun and I'm not here to bring other women down.

Why not ignore that one comment and respond to the many specific and politely posed questions/points?
ScreamingMeMe · 27/06/2021 20:32

There are lots of 1 and 2 star reviews mentioning this incident. I had to go on the app to view them though: the Yelp website is dreadful.

HalfShrunkMoreToGo · 27/06/2021 20:42

From what I can see the spa has 3 options available

Male floor
Female floor
Mixed sex floor.

On the sex segregated floors of the spa nudity is mandatory in the pools, saunas and changing areas. On the mixed sex floor all patrons are provide shorts, T-shirt's and slippers that they must wear.

So this individual had the option to utilise the services of the spa in the mixed sex areas, knowing that they would not offend anyone and would still be able to enjoy the facilities while identifying as whatever gender they liked.

Instead they opted to use the female floor, knowing that there would be exposing themselves and that they would be forcing women and children to expose themselves to someone who is male bodied.

That is completely inappropriate and abusive to those women who would never choose to be naked around a stranger male or to see a stranger male naked.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/06/2021 21:14

I think women who are fine with mixed sex spaces should use the men's section in spas and changing rooms, and leave women's single-sex spaces as they are, that is, a completely male free zone. I can't see why such women would object to such an arrangement.

If you are a woman who is fine with mixed sex spaces but refuses to use men's facilities, can you explain why you don't?

Odense · 27/06/2021 21:18

I work with young women who really don't feel the way that other posters feel

I don’t doubt that is how they feel. I felt that way too at 20, 25, probably even at 35. but as I age I have started to spot a pattern of behaviour.

And guess what, it seems that my cute harmless trans mates are really not representative of the ppl who are trying to muscle into single sex spaces.

And that is leaving aside the whole thorny issue of female socialisation. Which I only spotted when I had a small child and could see that happening in real time.

littlbrowndog · 27/06/2021 21:22

It’s like the Wimbledon swimming pools

1 was male only 1 was female only 1 was mixed sex

Now the female pool is for anyone who thinks they are women

So dismissive of women. Some men just don’t want us to have anything we would enjoy

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/06/2021 21:27

So this individual had the option to utilise the services of the spa in the mixed sex areas, knowing that they would not offend anyone and would still be able to enjoy the facilities while identifying as whatever gender they liked.

Instead they opted to use the female floor, knowing that there would be exposing themselves and that they would be forcing women and children to expose themselves to someone who is male bodied.

In that case, I think we know exactly why this individual made the conscious decision to use the female floor. And it's not because they are a nice, reasonable person with good intentions.

Stopsnowing · 27/06/2021 21:41

Would it work if we moved from men and women faciltities to penis and vulva-havers?

TheMoreThisReachesTheMainstrea · 27/06/2021 21:42

Maybe it's me but I only see glowing reviews. Have recent reviews been removed?

If I click ‘Yelp sort’ and change it to ‘newest first’ then scathing is the word that springs to mind