Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

[FannyCann]

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

so how do you think women's lives will improve by having no single sex spaces?

There ARE dangerous men around, agreed - do you think making it easier for dangerous men to access women when they are vulnerable is a good thing then?

But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

So let's just make things easier for them by getting rid of single sex facilities and women just accepting cock and balls in the changing room?

Great. Thanks a fucking lot.

But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

Are you proposing we abandon any kind of safeguarding because it's futile?

@Tistheseason17

I work with young women who really don't feel the way that other posters feel.

They do not question the internal feelings of their friends and accept their self declared gender and would happily share a changing room even if they had a penis.

I am neither dim nor disingenuous. I just want to understand why people feel the way they do. Thank you to the posters who treated me with kindness and have given me food for thought.

I'm leaning towards acceptance. And I have been the victim of a male several times so I can hold the view that I would not be scared of my trans friend if we went swimming.

That said, I do believe that as with anything there will always be a minority who are not genuine.

Homosexuality used to be illegal, so things that were once not believed as possible are now mainstream and celebrated. You can't "see" gay any more than you can "see" gender identity.

As PP noted - how the heck do we know who is dangerous or not- they don't wear a badge. But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

When you say I'm leaning towards acceptance do you mean you lean towards accepting the fact that some women and girls don't want to see a penis and testicles in a changing room which is supposed to be female only?

As PP noted - how the heck do we know who is dangerous or not- they don't wear a badge.

So the best solution is to keep the people with penises out of women-only spaces, not to let them all in and hope for the best.

But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

And how exactly do you think that letting males into female-only spaces will help? Do you really believe there will be fewer attacks by males on women if there are no female-only spaces?

I am neither dim nor disingenuous. I just want to understand why people feel the way they do. Thank you to the posters who treated me with kindness and have given me food for thought.

The reason I said this was that although I know there are women who are fine with having male-bodied trans people in female spaces, and you may be used to their views, I found it hard to believe you could possibly be unaware of the reasons why many women aren't fine with this. Namely the fear of unwanted male sexual attention or violence, feeling vulnerable exposing their naked body in front of an unknown male, the desire not to be confronted by male genitalia etc.

As has been pointed out, even if we set aside for a moment the question of potential actual male violence against women, why is it criminal or unacceptable behaviour for a man to flash at a woman or girl in the woods, or send unsolicited pictures of his genitals, but it's apparently fine to expose himself to women and girls in a female changing room?

I can never quite believe people use the 'women get attacked anyway' argument. Paedophiles gain access to kids anyway, so lets stop all criminal record checks for people working with kids. People shoplift anyway, so lets get rid of security tags and security guards in shops. People hijack planes anyway, so let's get rid of passing through the security gate and allow people get on with knives, guns and hand grenades.

I'm leaning towards acceptance. And I have been the victim of a male several times so I can hold the view that I would not be scared of my trans friend if we went swimming

But your trans friend is someone you know. how would you feel if it was a trans woman you didn't know? How would you feel if you were alone in a female changing room with Jacinta? It's not just about your trans friend.

Do people still not really understand what a transwoman can look like these days?

www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/former-teacher-avoids-jail-after-18722860

@IvyTwines2

On the Twitter thread someone highlights a Tripadvisor review of the Wi Spa from 2018 where a male, apparently heterosexual if his reported words are true, was doing something similar, and is reportedly a regular.

Found a screenshot

That said, I do believe that as with anything there will always be a minority who are not genuine.

Look. There is only reason a man parades naked around a women's spa with his meat and two veg hanging out and it is nothing to do with having an inner sense of gender and everything to do with being a sexual predator. I mean, I know it's difficult, but apply some common sense ffs.

Secondly, you might feel comfortable hanging around a women's spa with a fully intact naked man wandering around the place, but you have absolutely no right to compel other women to do the same. Absolutely no right at all.

I'd be interested on the viewpoint of a trans female on this matter.

If you mean a biological male, rather than an FTM trans person, I wouldn't be any more interested than I would be in the wokescold man's opinion. Which is not at all.

Five years ago, a woman on this very board said the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure will cease to exist.

Indeed. And people said she was exaggerating, "that never happens".

Are you proposing we abandon any kind of safeguarding because it's futile?

It's an argument that trans activists absolutely love. If a safeguarding measure/security feature/whatever does not provide 100% security, all of the time, in all circumstances, then it's not worth anything and might as well be abandoned.

Can you imagine that approach being applied in general life? Air, rail, and car travel, home, health and safety, any environment for children, appliances, food and drink, medical treatments, and the rest?

Sorry to @ you @tistheseason17 but I'm really not clear on what you think trans actually is.

How do you define trans? What, if anything, would preclude a person from being trans even if they say they are?

Re the young people who accept "i am what i say i am", can you expand on that a bit please? I don't think i know anyone like that irl and i just can't get my head around it.

To my mind it just seems incredibly naive, and i wonder if it's genuine. I mean, how much do they really believe it vs it being what some of us here might call "rightspeak".

I do really worry that young women have been socialised to believe that healthy boundaries are unacceptable.

However comfy an individual woman might be with male bodied people hanging out naked in what was once the women's changing room, she isn't entitled to speak for all the women and girls and tiny children who change there.

It's isn't being kind and inclusive to give away other women's rights without consulting them.

None of the analysis or safeguarding work under the present circumstances unless being "trans" is defined to be someone saying they are trans. That's the whole of it, absolutely nothing further is required.

@NewlyGranny

However comfy an individual woman might be with male bodied people hanging out naked in what was once the women's changing room, she isn't entitled to speak for all the women and girls and tiny children who change there.

It's isn't being kind and inclusive to give away other women's rights without consulting them.

This in spades.

Why do other people think they're authorised to sign away my rights for me?

I am not naive, dim or disingenuous and I'm unsure what throwing these insults at me is supposed to achieve.

I simply hold a different view and I'm not going to insult others for their views.

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind. With clothes on you would not know. I do not feel threatened by her.

My experiences differ to others but that does not mean I am right or wrong in my views. Shouting me down and name calling does not validate opposing views. I do not promote violence against women or anyone. Not every man or trans female is out to get us.

I'm leaving this discussion as having insults thrown at me is not fun and I'm not here to bring other women down.

I'm not insulting you, I'm genuinely interested in how comfortable you would be sharing a single sex space with Jacinta.

Because if we let your friend in, we also let people like Jacinta in.

If Jacinta has friends who would vouch for Jacinta, then Jacinta would have as much right to be there as Tistheseason17's nice friend.

I was genuinely hoping tistheseason would be able to shed some light on that, alas it is not to be.

From the answer tis did share i can only conclude that if you have a nice tw friend any man should be allowed in women's spaces aka missing the point entirely.

Safeguarding safeguarding

Always remember this

I work with young girls. No one I know believes that you can change sex

There are not the kind girls though. They know what can happen

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind.

But what does it matter how she feels in her mind?

[quote PandorasMailbox]The reviews are brutal

www.yelp.com/biz/wi-spa-los-angeles-2?start=40[/quote]
Maybe it's me but I only see glowing reviews.
Have recent reviews been removed?

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind.

But whatever she is in her mind, she knows that she has male sexual organs. It's not asking her to change what's in her mind to expect her to accept that reality in her day to day life?

I expect most women have male relatives or trusted friends they're happy to share intimate spaces with. This is about courtesy and safeguarding among strangers, and with women who haven't granted you that intimacy.