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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

999 replies

FannyCann · 27/06/2021 11:14

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

OP posts:
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FannyCann · 27/06/2021 21:44

Looking through some of the reviews going further back in time I would say the place has a lot of problems. It's not just women that get creeped on by men, and then the time two men were fighting for twenty five minutes must have cleared the floor, meanwhile a squad of cops marched through to track down their man. I don't know why, it's making me think of finding oneself in an episode so Starsky and Hutch. Confused

Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles
Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles
Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles
OP posts:
FightingtheFoo · 27/06/2021 22:01

@Tistheseason17

I have no issues with transgender women using the female changing room. It does take a long time to get surgery to transition. Neither my female or trans friends feel the need to wave their genitalia around - that is odd in itself. Mind you there were a few women who liked to walk up and start chats at the gym with me whilst naked when I did not even know them and some young females with boob jobs who loved to stand in front of the mirror - these also caused upset to those with body issues.

Without knowing more info, it does sound like a self declaring male who wants to be in a female space, rather than a transgender female.

I'd be interested on the viewpoint of a trans female on this matter.

So women that like to have anal sex or hardcore BdSM - do they get to consent on your behalf?

No?

Then you don't get to consent on this - or any other - woman's behalf.

BlackeyedSusan · 27/06/2021 23:13

well, thanks to this thread I have had "one of those conversations" with ds. a chance to explain and talk about safeguarding.

EsmaCannonball · 27/06/2021 23:46

So if this happened on the women's floor then all those women would have been naked when the naked man walked in? No wonder they looked so shocked and upset.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 27/06/2021 23:47

What risk would this person have been in changing in the male changing rooms (wokey bloke seems nice and accommodating Hmm) - the type of changing room that they would have used from, say 7 or 8 up (when they would have been too old to use the female ones with mum)? They’ve seen it all before - no one would have anything that they didn’t have/have seen before. You go in, get changed and go out.

So why is it ok for this person to get naked in a ladies changing room? I never get naked in changing rooms - ever. Most women don’t. And (the majority of) woman understand why women don’t want tackle flapping around in the ladies changing rooms. And those who say they don’t care - I would sincerely hope - would understand that they don’t have the right to give away this right on behalf of all other women, and understand why others don’t feel comfortable or safe in this scenario.

334bu · 27/06/2021 23:47

I work with young women who really don't feel the way that other posters feel

Pretty sure that,all the women milling around that reception area , all of whom had been forced out of the female changing room by the presence of a male person deliberately exposing his genitalia to all and sundry, don't share your attitude towards the presence of male people in their safe spaces. Their consent is not yours to give away.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 27/06/2021 23:49

They may not ‘feel the same way’ because they have been conditioned to say they feel that way. To say otherwise and you’d get called a loathesome bigot... so maybe ask again, in an anonymous forum - do you want to be around random naked stranger men?

HalfShrunkMoreToGo · 27/06/2021 23:55

@EsmaCannonball

So if this happened on the women's floor then all those women would have been naked when the naked man walked in? No wonder they looked so shocked and upset.
Exactly!

Here's the spas Facebook page where they describe the setup

Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/06/2021 23:57

another single sex spa, spa B, for all grumpy GC feminists and their daughters, or? We could have a small bar in a corner and anyone up for discussing GC issues whilst our girls (and we) had a lovely time could do so.

Here’s my application for membership of Spa B, WoolOfBat! See you there.

NiceGerbil · 28/06/2021 00:13

What is really interesting in that clip (the longer one)

Is that the people behind the desk just aren't interested. Or just don't want to get involved.

That there's a group of women one in a bath robe who I'm guessing had left the spa because the penis owner was there.

That the woman just paying asked for her money back and I think they initially said no!! But I couldn't hear that week.

That there were more women who were on the other side who maybe were queuing and had sort of gone over to stand near the complaining woman.

That all the men were standing there quietly hoping to fuck no one involved them.

That s bloke came up to try to educate the complaining woman that a penis person hanging out in a space full of naked women and girls was fine.

Then near the end. Has he left? No he's just sitting there.

The idea that transwomen are shy of their bodies and want to quietly go about their lives seems to have not been communicated to this individual.

What a shitshow. This is where it is.

You have to be brave to complain there's a naked penis owner in the communal naked women facilities. And, no one who works there will do anything. And neither will the men. All the time the idea is that male violence is a huge threat to transwomen. There were what 15 or so men there. And not a single one was even vaguely considering even going and asking the person to leave let alone beating them up.

Fucks sake.

NiceGerbil · 28/06/2021 00:15

Thanks for that halfshrunk.

This individual could have worn a small amount of clothes and gone to the mixed area then.

Reminds me of Hampstead ponds. There's a mixed sex one there as well.

NiceGerbil · 28/06/2021 00:18

On indecent exposure. I think that probably wouldn't work as it's a place where everyone is expected to be naked.

So there's a handy thing for certain people indeed.

NiceGerbil · 28/06/2021 00:23

@Tistheseason17

I work with young women who really don't feel the way that other posters feel.

They do not question the internal feelings of their friends and accept their self declared gender and would happily share a changing room even if they had a penis.

I am neither dim nor disingenuous. I just want to understand why people feel the way they do. Thank you to the posters who treated me with kindness and have given me food for thought.

I'm leaning towards acceptance. And I have been the victim of a male several times so I can hold the view that I would not be scared of my trans friend if we went swimming.

That said, I do believe that as with anything there will always be a minority who are not genuine.

Homosexuality used to be illegal, so things that were once not believed as possible are now mainstream and celebrated. You can't "see" gay any more than you can "see" gender identity.

As PP noted - how the heck do we know who is dangerous or not- they don't wear a badge. But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender.

Plenty have covered a lot of reasons but has this been mentioned.

Is it beneficial to teach girls of whatever age are in there, naked.

That it's unremarkable, not a problem etc. To be around naked male adults, and for you to be undressed as well.

What's your take on that?

NiceGerbil · 28/06/2021 00:28

Oh no that poster has gone?! Shame.

The telling female children this is ok is surely a huge problem.

I really enjoyed the classic 'women and girls are going to be sexually attacked by men anyway so what's the problem' line.

Never grows old does it.

HalfShrunkMoreToGo · 28/06/2021 00:31

And actually for me the biggest feeling of violation would be a male seeing me naked.

I would be shocked by the sight of them in all their floppy glory but wouldn't feel violated by the sight of a naked penis.

I am a naturally shy person, I have had 1 sexual partner, my husband, so beyond infancy when my dad changed my nappies, the only male who has ever seen me naked is my husband.

Throughout my pregnancy, the thing that caused me the most anxiety and made me want a home birth (which I couldn't have due to complications) was the fear of having a male doctor, nurse or midwife.

I'm not religious, or particularly 'prudish', i have no problem with nudity in my home with my husband and my daughter (7yrs old) sees me naked often. I don't come from a culture where modesty is a requirement, but I would be horrified and feel so very very upset if a complete stranger male person saw me naked without my permission.

I don't believe I could possibly be the only person who would feel that way.

At the very least, every single woman should have been warned that they would be sharing that space with a male bodied person so that they could make an informed decision on whether they wanted to stay and use the services.

Pandoraslastchance · 28/06/2021 00:41

@NonnyMouse1337

So this individual had the option to utilise the services of the spa in the mixed sex areas, knowing that they would not offend anyone and would still be able to enjoy the facilities while identifying as whatever gender they liked.

Instead they opted to use the female floor, knowing that there would be exposing themselves and that they would be forcing women and children to expose themselves to someone who is male bodied.

In that case, I think we know exactly why this individual made the conscious decision to use the female floor. And it's not because they are a nice, reasonable person with good intentions.

This is enabling those who enjoy flashing and forcing others to take part in their kinks.

If they had a dysphoria of that body part then surely they would have just quietly and discreetly got changed, not letting it all flop about in front of children!

I have a bit of a hatred of my one remaining tit(post mastecomy). So I avoid looking at it, I avoid it swinging free in the wind. I certainly do not wander around with it out and about for all to see.

aloris · 28/06/2021 01:43

"As somebody recently observed, the assertion of power in the story of the emperor and his new clothes was never about the nudity, it was about the power the emperor had to expose himself in public as an act of intimidation and dominance, and for nobody to have the right to comment on it."

Very insightful.

aloris · 28/06/2021 01:47

"Secondly, you might feel comfortable hanging around a women's spa with a fully intact naked man wandering around the place, but you have absolutely no right to compel other women to do the same. Absolutely no right at all."

And this, also nicely said.

aloris · 28/06/2021 02:01

"And actually for me the biggest feeling of violation would be a male seeing me naked."

Exactly. For many women, our bodily nakedness is very vulnerable. If some women don't have a problem sharing private spaces with men, that's their own concern. But the bodily privacy of other women and girls is not theirs to give away.

ExhaustedFlamingo · 28/06/2021 02:16

I showed my DP this earlier - he's very much gender critical and on "my side" when it comes to the whole concept that biology matters.

However, what was interesting - and also infuriating - was that while he agreed that there should not be a person wanging around a penis in the female changing room, he described the woman who complained as "sounding like a bit of a Karen". I asked him what he meant, and he sort of muttered that she went about it in the wrong way and shouldn't have been so loud. I know all the misogynistic connotations of the use of the term Karen, but even setting those aside for a moment, I asked him what he expected her to do. She was naked and vulnerable, and in an area which should have been a safe space she was confronted by a fully intact biological man. Did he think whispering quietly and apologetically to the reception staff would get anywhere? She was clearly shocked and angry, and entirely justified in her reaction. DP couldn't describe what he thought she "should" have done and in the end agreed that her reaction wasn't unreasonable.

My DP is lovely and not an intentionally sexist twat. Not at all. But it just shows you that even for the men who agree with the gender critical ideology that there can still be a really misogynistic unconscious belief about how women should conduct themselves. And believe me, I'm quite feisty so he should be used to it by now! I felt quite frustrated that his response wasn't outrage at the penis in the women's area, but that the woman shouldn't have caused such a disruption, despite being right. Sigh.

aloris · 28/06/2021 02:45

"he described the woman who complained as "sounding like a bit of a Karen". I asked him what he meant, and he sort of muttered that she went about it in the wrong way and shouldn't have been so loud. "

What I thought was interesting about the video was that the other women clearly agreed with the woman who was speaking. So she was really standing up for all of them. Another woman in the video is asking for her money back because of the event. Elsewhere in the video is a little girl and a woman wearing a bathrobe. Offscreen, other women are agreeing with the woman who is filming the video.

I don't know if this video will at all change things but it's so nice to see women stand up and say that this is wrong and that we don't consent to this.

CharlieParley · 28/06/2021 02:50

They do not question the internal feelings of their friends and accept their self declared gender and would happily share a changing room even if they had a penis.

That's between friends. I went skinnydipping at night in our local swimming pool with a whole group of pals, male and female. We trusted each other and I had a choice.

The women in that video did not know the naked, fully intact male customer in the female-only area. They made a choice to be free from the presence of male adults in the female-only area. Fully expecting that choice to be respected. And rightly so.

So this situation does not compare to the situation of the young women you know consenting to being naked around their naked male friends. Because we are talking about the women who don't know these friends and consent is not transferable - you cannot agree to forego the privacy and dignity or the safety of other women.

I'm leaning towards acceptance. And I have been the victim of a male several times so I can hold the view that I would not be scared of my trans friend if we went swimming.

Me too. Does that acceptance include respecting the needs of women who cannot be in the presence of naked males for any reason, whether that is trauma, or privacy and dignity or culturally conservative backgrounds? Because in that spa, the way I understand acceptance and respecting the rights of others to also be accepted, I would happily sit in the mixed-sex area with a male transgender friend, leaving the female-only area to females.

Women, who after all don't know my friend and unlike me would have no way of knowing if that's a good one or a bad one. In the mixed-sex area that is. In the female-only area, a naked male adult clearly signals "bad one, beware". Because no male adult should be there. One who is however has already violated the boundaries and consent of the women and children in that area. In my view (and experience) that makes this a person not to be trusted.

That said, I do believe that as with anything there will always be a minority who are not genuine.

Safeguarding always, always looks to that minority. The rules- and law-abiding majority are not typically the reason why we need safeguarding measures.

You're looking at the best-case scenario - a friend you know and trust. Safeguarding must look at the worst case scenario in order to be effective - a person who is a danger, whether to friends or strangers.

Homosexuality used to be illegal, so things that were once not believed as possible are now mainstream and celebrated. You can't "see" gay any more than you can "see" gender identity.

Well, I don't need to see which sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes someone may choose to embody to discern whether to be wary of their presence in a female-only space when im naked. I can see sex, that's all that's necessary. And sex is so obvious in the vast majority of people, even a toddler can tell you.

Anyway, the conflation of the gay rights movement with today's trans rights movement is an attempt to conflate the underlying reason for opposition to equal rights for gay people with the underlying reason for opposition to self-id and the doctrine of gender identity.

The former, as Jane Clare Jones explains in her excellent article comparing both movements, was grounded in nothing more and nothing less than moral disgust.

She writes:

The use of the concept of ‘homophobia’ to dismiss objections to gay rights carried a ton of weight because the basis for a legitimate moral or political objection would be that something causes a harm, and in the case of gay rights there is a complete dearth of convincing arguments as to why homosexuality is a harm. It doesn’t harm homosexuals (whereas repressing it evidently does), and it doesn’t harm anyone else.

If you read anything here on FWR, you already know that moral disgust is not what motivates us to object to self-id and the doctrine of gender identity. We have a whole range of other reasons to object, both involving harm to women and girls as individuals and as a group and harm to transgender people.

As JCJ states:

But this is precisely where the ‘homophobia-transphobia’ parallel falls completely apart. Because in the case of the trans rights agenda there is actually a load of potential harms we might reasonably be worried about. Indeed, there is a kind of dull thudding irony to the fact that the very week Momentum decide to remind us that we’re all scaremongering bigots on the wrong side of history it also became public knowledge that Karen White – a trans woman on remand for rape – had been sent to a women’s jail where they sexually assaulted four inmates. (Who could have predicted it?)

The key thing to understand about trans rights activism is that, unlike gay rights activism, it is not just a movement seeking to ensure that trans people are not discriminated against. It is, rather, a movement committed to a fundamental reconceptualization of the very idea of what makes someone a man or a woman. In theory, this equally affects both men and women, but in practice, almost all the social pressure is coming from trans women towards the idea of ‘woman’ and the rights of women. And that’s because, when it comes down to it, this whole thing is being driven by male people who want something female people have, and that something, is, in fact, our very existence. Moreover, it turns out – who knew? – that male people have the inclination and social power to exert extreme coercive pressure on female people, and to court the sympathy and support of other males when they do so. (It’s almost as if sex is a thing and that it has something to do with power after all mmmm?).

You'll find that essay here: janeclarejones.com/2018/09/09/gay-rights-and-trans-rights-a-compare-and-contrast/

As PP noted - how the heck do we know who is dangerous or not- they don't wear a badge. But, there are lots of dangerous men around and the majority are already committing acts of violence in daily life without declaring a different gender

But some do. In increasing numbers, too, taking advantage of existing safeguarding measures being undermined or removed entirely. Furthermore, what other safeguarding measures and laws should we remove because people violate them anyway?

Drink driving laws?
Medicines licensing?
Door locks?
Criminal records checks?
The Equality Act?

IsItAKindofDream · 28/06/2021 02:56

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ExhaustedFlamingo · 28/06/2021 04:05

@aloris - Yes, I noticed all the other women who were supporting the one who was complaining. There was the lady asking for a refund and a number of other women standing behind her wearing robes/with wet hair that had clearly come from using the spa.

It wasn't one overly-uptight and sensitive person complaining - I also thought it was really heartening to see the women standing there together.

I also noticed the gaggle of men on the other side who seemed silent and watching - other than wokey-blokey who was intent on telling women how to feel about the presence of a penis in their safe space.

musthavebeenlove · 28/06/2021 04:46

That lady is my hero of the day.