Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

[FannyCann]

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

@AmericanSlang

Datun I saw a new one today, that we cannot object to someone in our female spaces just because they have a "different genital arrangement". Oh, and if we don't like that particular "arrangement" in our eyeline, we can "just turn around". Why did we never think of that - just avert your eyes!

That’s like Jolyon Maugham saying on Twitter that we should just “tut and move away” if they get their, er, different arrangement out! Then he blocked loads of women who challenged him.

I saw on another thread that a nudist gathering had arranged a meet-up based on gendered identity. They were trying to balance the gender identities by restricting tickets to male gender identities.

I think that was so interesting. Maybe in the future, we can have naked single sex spaces and also naked gendered spaces. What I don’t understand is the amount of grief the organiser and all supportive women are getting from TRAs

Ok not sure how this will land.

The single sex areas are naked.

I may be not correct as I'm taking an English view to this.

My assumption tbh would be that men who use a naked male only space like this would probably be gay... (?)

As such.

Not because they're horrible. But the total reticence to get involved might be because if you're in that community the pressure and potential consequences of even slightly showing empathy or support for the women could well be much more personally dangerous than for a straight man.

I am making assumptions there so tell me if I'm talking rubbish.

I really have no idea how this would end at all. I am not really into nudity and just want to get changed in privacy.

However, I found the reasoning (gender identity vs gender expression in the absence of clothes) fascinating.

I am just disappointed that TRAs don’t seem to be more supportive of this.

'
I think that was so interesting. Maybe in the future, we can have naked single sex spaces and also naked gendered spaces. What I don’t understand is the amount of grief the organiser and all supportive women are getting from TRAs'

The spa has s mixed sex area but you need to keep your pants on

They could have gone there no probs

My assumption tbh would be that men who use a naked male only space like this would probably be gay... (?)

In a spa with two single-sex spaces (one male, one female - both involve nudity) and a mixed space (clothes must be worn) - I'd think it was related to someone's sex and not their sexual orientation.

I'd only ever use a single-sex female space - I'm comfortable with that. I have relatives who've had bc surgery who would never want to be in a mixed space.

Yes it may be that USA culture around male single sex spaces is different to England.

I genuinely have no idea.

I’m not sure gerbil

I don’t think it matters what orientation you are.

Respect and decency do not require a specific sexual orientation.

Anyone decent would know this wasn’t a decent thing to do in a roomful of naked women.

The reason they stayed silent or were reluctant to pipe up is because people like the white T-shirt man would say they were transphobic. And that is a horrible thing to be accused of.

The reality is that it is nowt to do with transphobia but the mere fact a man choose to make women uncomfortable and upset because he could.

The reason they stayed silent or were reluctant to pipe up is because people like the white T-shirt man would say they were transphobic. And that is a horrible thing to be accused of.

Agreed. There are no horrible accusations or consequences associated with tacitly and silently permitting distress to women and children and the abuse of their boundaries in plain sight . Spa dudebro even seems to support it and may well have been hoping for applause on some platform or other.

Aye. Being accused of transphobia in public can bring very unwelcome attention to your door.

You can see it being an easier option to stay silent. It doesn’t mean that they agree with what has happened.

I just wish it would become the fashionable thing to stand up for and support women.

I wish we mattered more.

And not more than anyone else. Because we all matter.

I once got accused very loudly on a London bus of being racist (totally wasn't, I asked young black woman v politely to give her seat up for v elderly black lady). She said v loudly "Ya racist". The bus went silent. All eyes on me.. I got off at the next stop. It was paralysing.

It is that the women are isolated. There is no help. Not the law, not security, not the police, no by standers. No one

It's frightening. And I guess that's how things are going to be from now on.

@JustcameoutGC

I once got accused very loudly on a London bus of being racist (totally wasn't, I asked young black woman v politely to give her seat up for v elderly black lady). She said v loudly "Ya racist". The bus went silent. All eyes on me.. I got off at the next stop. It was paralysing.

Why on earth would you do that?

Who made you king/queen of the bus???

I've done that on a London bus. Half standing including elderly/disabled and you'll see selfish youngsters staring into their phone with earphones on. You get sick of it.

^while sitting obviously.

I've also tapped a man on the shoulder as I was leaving a London bus, and pointed to his rucksack that was taking up a seat on a crowded bus with other people just standing over it. They were most grateful.

Not king or queen just basically considerate of others!

So you would just stand there and do nothing risking a really elderly lady falling over on a crowded bus rather than ask someone to give up their seat? That is just mental. She was sitting in the seats designated for those less able to stand..

Anyways enough of the derail.

'Respect and decency do not require a specific sexual orientation.

Anyone decent would know this wasn’t a decent thing to do in a roomful of naked women.

The reason they stayed silent or were reluctant to pipe up is because people like the white T-shirt man would say they were transphobic. And that is a horrible thing to be accused of.'

Yes of course.

What I'm getting at is that if you're gay, then speaking up especially in front of other gay men will likely cost you much more.

That's all I'm saying.

Not that there is a difference in respect etc but that IF that's the case (and USA might well be very different in terms of what men would even slightly pay to use a facility where all the men are naked) then the consequences could be massive arguments with partners, friends, being labelled a bigot and essentially ostracised from friendship groups etc.

I'm not saying that straight men would have stepped in necessarily- IME they don't. But it would go some way to explaining wokebro and the total frozen inaction of the men watching.

If you're in the LGBT+ community and I'm imagining (could be wrong obv) that the male spa was predominantly used by gay men, then speaking up then even slightly would be, well. Very different.

Also (and this is even more contraversial) it's recognised amongst a lot of women that a depressing amount of gay men are incredibly and deeply misogynist.

Straight men tend to try to put a lid on it as they might want to shag us, or they like being with us for looking at, many have female partners etc that they hear stuff from, and they know what men are like when it comes to women and worry etc. (Leading over history and now to massive restrictions on our freedom etc but that's another thread).

Gay men - NSGMALT - often don't have that concern etc.

Just struck me really.

IF the male naked spa place is mainly used by gay men then there's a lot of reasons that the absolute lack of any empathy etc, and also the wokebro makes a bit more sense, even if it is utterly fucking shit.

It's all par for the course isn't it. Reality and commonsense have been ignored for so long. Along with judging. Well I bloody judge.

You and me both, Datun.

Judgment used to be an admirable quality. “She’s an excellent judge of character.”
“He’s a wise judge.”
“You can trust her judgment on tax law.”

As did discrimination, more as pertaining to expertise in food, drink, art appreciation, music. But still.

Judgment and discrimination—in the best possible sense of both words—came from a place of recognising differences while appreciating high quality, and also having standards and boundaries.

It’s a shame both those words have become pejorative (though I understand why). It is also a shame that so many seem to have lost the ability to rely on their own faculties, or to develop them in a way that is discerning rather than harmful.

'Why on earth would you do that?

Who made you king/queen of the bus???'

Huh?

When I'm standing on the tube and it's packed I have often said to a person seated, do you mind standing up for this person? And they always do.

When you're feeling vulnerable it can be hard to ask. I know this from experience.

Someone else asking on your behalf if you're obviously more in need of a seat is a good thing to do. Especially when those seated are usually just zoned out rather than deliberately not noticing.

What a weird comment.

Hello person with headphones on. Would you mind standing up so this heavily pregnant woman on crutches could sit?

OMG you bastard? Who do you think you are??!!

Lolz tbh.

@RoyalCorgi

It is that the women are isolated. There is no help. Not the law, not security, not the police, no by standers. No one

It's frightening. And I guess that's how things are going to be from now on.

It really is frightening.

I cannot get over how quickly we have dropped the presumption that a male in a female only space is up to no good, in favour of the presumption that it’s “probably” ok because he is “probably” transgender.

It's evident that we're going to have to start reporting these people with penises in women / girl only spaces for indecent exposure / flashing. We know that indecent exposure is a gateway offence for sex offenders so presumably women en masse are going to have to report any naked penis haver to the police
I know the police are worryingly captured but maybe they need to be put on the spot and forced to explain why they're condoning adult penises being exposed to girls and women without our consent?

@MrsOvertonsWindow

It's evident that we're going to have to start reporting these people with penises in women / girl only spaces for indecent exposure / flashing. We know that indecent exposure is a gateway offence for sex offenders so presumably women en masse are going to have to report any naked penis haver to the police I know the police are worryingly captured but maybe they need to be put on the spot and forced to explain why they're condoning adult penises being exposed to girls and women without our consent?

I think this is also the only way to document that this is happening. Making a complaint with the company is fine, but if they are saying they cannot do anything because of nondiscrimination regulations, then it doesn't help substantially. Even if they do find some onetime workaround that only applies to this particular storefront in this particular location, it still leaves other women and girls in this situation to fend for themselves. It needs to be documented where women's groups can find the documentation and use it for advocacy with their political representatives.

You could be right nice gerbil I really don’t know.

I would hope that a gay man wouldn’t be subjected to the same kind of grief that women get if they choose to stand up against this nonsense.

But it seems that anyone standing up for what is happening to women and girls is subjected to hate.

As you say as shit as it is, it makes the silence less of a surprise.

I think silence is more acceptable to me than a man saying I was a dick for being upset though…

And re the king/queen of the bus stuff?

I’m in my 50s. If I went on the bus and didn’t stand for someone older/pregnant/parent with child and was spotted by a neighbour?

My mam would be told and there would be words! Even at my age!

Courtesy and consideration costs nowt.

And if it had been back in the day and I’d have remained seated? I daresay I would have got a skiff round the back of the head

@MrsOvertonsWindow

It's evident that we're going to have to start reporting these people with penises in women / girl only spaces for indecent exposure / flashing. We know that indecent exposure is a gateway offence for sex offenders so presumably women en masse are going to have to report any naked penis haver to the police I know the police are worryingly captured but maybe they need to be put on the spot and forced to explain why they're condoning adult penises being exposed to girls and women without our consent?

That won't work where I live.

Recently there was a retired police bloke on the news explaining patronisingly that indecent exposure wasn't something they were interested in following up. Too trivial.

He was referring to a man who exposed himself in a situation that should have rung escalation alarm bells. It was in a fast food restaurant with multiple staff and customers. His car was parked outside.

They got his reg number and reported it. Nothing happened. (As per what the police chap was explaining in easy words for (women) people to understand.

A few days later he kidnapped tortured and murdered a woman.