Pushback at Wi Spa in Los Angeles

[FannyCann]

Well it's all kicking off at the spa. An amazing woman behind the desk standing up for women and telling a man where to take his penis. I fear she will lose her job over this but it's a glorious way to go.

twitter.com/stillgray/status/1408997169344909313?s=21

This is why the legal distinction between sex and gender is so important; in the US transgender is now a protected characteristic thats treated as being the same as sex. He has the legal right to enter the women's spaces.

Society has done a complete 180 on attitudes towards women and single sex spaces; in a very short time we've moved from judging women for not using them to judging women who expect them.
Its absolutely bizarre to expect all women to be able to undo a lifetime of conditioning on demand in this way. Its disgusting to ignore their preferences for privacy when the third space solution is so simple.

It also ignores the fact that this policy puts women at risk; not only from predatory men in their spaces, but from controlling men at home who would violently object to them using mixed sex spaces.

what that dude appears to be implying is that it's ok for a male to swing his dick and balls in a naked female only spa SO LONG as he has a particular mental state, which is that he identifies as or believes himself to be female.

That's exactly it, yep. The defense is that it is okay for a person to behave in any way they please so long as they have this undefinable, invisible, unmeasurable mental state.

In fact, they don't even need to declare this mental state - it's inferred by their actions.

What wokebro is saying is 'if there is a male-bodied person in the female space, then by definition they are [probably] a transwoman' (and the woman is 'being a dick' for asking the question/mentioning the fact).

It's as if voyeurism or fetishism has been erased as a thing, as if it never happened and could never happen. The possibility of a person in the changing room being there for sexual gratification is something that we are not even allowed to suggest or ask or infer. In case it might upset a person who is transgender.

I think this is enormously insulting to transgender/transexual people, in fact.

I remember the male in the woman's shelter with an erection and how they were defended by the staff of the shelter. The argument is that we can't presume someone has sexual motives, but I still can't actually see what behaviour they would consider proof of unacceptable motives.

We don't even get to the point where we can question the transgender status of this person. If they are there, no matter what it is they are doing, then they 'might' be transgender, and are therefore exempt from questioning/comment.

I am not sure, at this point, where this dudebro would draw the line. Is there a line for him? What behaviour does he deem unacceptable? Is there anyone or anything that would be barred from the woman's space? It sounds like he is saying that woman are to accept anyone and everyone in the woman's space without ever, ever voicing any discomfort or concern.

Well... dudebro perfectly illustrates who comes first. Not ‘are you ok? Has anyone gone in to speak to this person?’ I hope his mam sees this...

Was showing DH this and talking to him about it and he was most stunned by the blokes hanging around watching. Presumably, none of them had female friends or relatives who were in the women's area being affected by this.

As he said, if me or our daughter had been in there, he would at the very least have gone and stood in front of this bloke with his back to the women and held a towel up to block the guys view. If that happened to be the towel he was wearing, then the guy could have stared at his dangly bits whilst the women and girls had chance to get dried and dressed.

@EyesOpening

“And actually for me the biggest feeling of violation would be a male seeing me naked”

Yes, imagine standing in a room full of men looking at you while you undress/are naked. I’d feel very vulnerable.

he described the woman who complained as "sounding like a bit of a Karen". I asked him what he meant, and he sort of muttered that she went about it in the wrong way and shouldn't have been so loud. "

I’m sure I read something recently that included saying a woman shouldn’t say things too loudly nor too quietly etc
Plus a drawing of a neckline which went from frumpy to slutty - seems they think we should be only allowed a very thinnest of lines as our parameters

Yes, this was interesting. I didn't think she was too loud at all. She was exactly the right amount of loud, and was polite too. It's essentially saying that, what the man in the women's room did, is on the same level of "wrong" as her complaining about it. He exposed himself to a room full of unclothed people of the opposite sex. But SHE complained about it at a level deemed too loud by men. Same thing! She loses.

It minimises what happened. It creates a fake test, by which one can always claim that the woman is in the wrong, without ever having to set out the conditions by which she can successfully defend her rights.
Did I defend my rights correctly this time?
No, too loud, try again.
How about this time?
No, too mean. Try again.
How about this time?
No, you should have zagged when instead you zigged. Try again.
etcetera.

So to the men who think we should always lose, no matter how nicely we say it (because transwomen are women and any claim otherwise is bigotry), we can add those who say they could be convinced that we should have the right not to be seen naked by men, but then are never convincable no matter how good the argument.

So to the men who think we should always lose, no matter how nicely we say it (because transwomen are women and any claim otherwise is bigotry), we can add those who say they could be convinced that we should have the right not to be seen naked by men, but then are never convincable no matter how good the argument.

Karen's commentary on this was spot on. The complainer refused to be diverted from her simple message. She didn't change her language to suit the people pushing back, challenging, or attempting to police her or to assert that her socialisation meant she should moderate her message, her volume, or her tone and she didn't dial back her righteous wrath.

The YouTube comments include new definitions of "TERF" which we can all get behind:
Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

It baffles me it really does.
I'm a transwoman and I would never dream of trying to enter a female changing room.
I never had the opportunity to transition when I was young, I am completely aware that I look like a bloke in a dress and women and girls would rightly be uncomfortable if not terrified to see me in their changing areas.
This is my problem, my cross to bear and I don't expect anyone to have to validate me.

Also as a transwoman I detest my body and would be extremely embarrassed for anyone to see me undressed so I really don't understand this desire to be in that situation and question wether anyone doing that is actually trans,the problem is that the trans umbrella is just to all encompassing now.
We need sensible rules that keep everyone safe.

Well done to the people calling this out.

@DdraigGoch

The YouTube comments include new definitions of "TERF" which we can all get behind: Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

I want this on a t shirt

I loved Karen's video but I do have one criticism.

She mentions this as being a changing room.

Now, I'm not suggesting getting your dick out in a female changing room is acceptable, but I think it may give an impression that reduces the impact.

This is a female only spa area (not just a changing room) with saunas, hot tubs, treatment beds, steam rooms in which it is mandatory to be naked.

It's not simply a place where you might spend 10 minutes getting dressed/undressed.

It's a space where women and girls are expected to be nude for several hours or more whilst using the facilities. Climbing in and out of hot tubs legs akimbo, sitting for significant periods of time in a confined sauna with strangers etc.

The women using this facility know that and choose to go on the understanding that this is a cultural aspect of a Korean spa but supposedly safe in the knowledge that it's a female only space and traditionally multiple generations of the same family will go together, spending a few hours in either the male/female areas and then join up together after in the unisex area where clothing is mandatory.

Having a man in that female space is deeply, deeply intrusive. It's not a brief interaction (as if even that would be ok).

The expectation is that women should put up with spending hours and hours in that environment with a man watching them.

@Imasoulman

It baffles me it really does. I'm a transwoman and I would never dream of trying to enter a female changing room. I never had the opportunity to transition when I was young, I am completely aware that I look like a bloke in a dress and women and girls would rightly be uncomfortable if not terrified to see me in their changing areas. This is my problem, my cross to bear and I don't expect anyone to have to validate me.

Also as a transwoman I detest my body and would be extremely embarrassed for anyone to see me undressed so I really don't understand this desire to be in that situation and question wether anyone doing that is actually trans,the problem is that the trans umbrella is just to all encompassing now.
We need sensible rules that keep everyone safe.

Well done to the people calling this out.

Well done to you for being so honest too and not going along with the TRA narrative.

I see that the ‘new’ pride flag is just over half the original stripes (London mayor twitter). What is going on?

I despair when a woman - a black woman, too, I think - cannot voice a complaint without being labelled 'Karen' and provoking comments that she can object, of course she can, but "not like that".

Because she's too loud/shrill/opinionated/unfeminine/persistent/nagging/unkind ad nauseam.

When you ask such people exactly how it's acceptable to complain, they never specify because they specialise in moving goalposts and whatever method someone tries will automatically be the wrong one.

Look at the suffragists and suffragettes and how long it took to win the vote from the reluctant forces of the patriarchy. Decades!

If transwomwn feel like women on the inside and are drawn to the most feminine stereotypical behaviour, where is the modesty, maidenly shyness and feminine reserve?

Or perhaps the woman this individual had always felt was inside was a stripper?! Even so, a little mystery, please!

Yes derigeurmortis

It wasn’t just a changing room

Was where women girls of all ages would have been naked together

Why would he think it was the place for him ?

imasoulman

🌻

What I am starting to believe is that those who exhibit themselves like this in public are not transwomen at all.

Just men who can and will do exactly what they want for entirely different reasons.

Two people I know feel the same way as you and would no more exhibit themselves or make others uncomfortable than they would fly to the moon.

My trans M2F friend may have male sexual organs but she is not male in her mind.
You can read minds, can you? How else would you know for sure?

The point is that no one can be sure which penis-havers are a threat and which are well-meaning. You cannot tell if someone is inclined to do harm until it is too late. Therefore the safest thing to do is to exclude all of those who possess the physical means to do harm from single-sex spaces.

If you walk down a dark street at night, most of the men you pass will have no intention of dragging you into the bushes and raping you. That doesn't stop women from wearing running shoes, telling a friend their plans and carrying their keys in hand as a precaution, just incase the next man they pass IS that predator.

I don’t know what ‘woman’ feels like. It’s like trying to describe the taste of water to someone else who has never drank water.

@littlbrowndog

Yes derigeurmortis

It wasn’t just a changing room

Was where women girls of all ages would have been naked together

Why would he think it was the place for him ?

Yes and given that man who intervened was a user of the spa he would know that.

Yet he still thought it acceptable for a naked man to be in that environment.

Surrounded for hours on end whilst those were also nude.

He said the woman (shero) was a "dick" for complaining.

It's not even remotely comparable to a changing room where (even though it's not acceptable and they should not have to do so) women could wait for 10/20 mins until the man had left.

It meant their only choice was to vacate a female only space they they had paid to frequent for a number of hours.

I despair of the mindset of people who think that's ok.

Trust me - ten minutes of me waddling around the gents areas - starkers, doing my back stretches, scratching my backside and juggling my lady jumps and wokebro would not only be demanding his money back, he’d be right out off his tea...

Sharing as relevant and a useful image of the the man who challenged the woman who was reporting the incident to reception as well as the transcription.

The comments in response to Matt Walsh (previously unknown to me) discussing the video are worth reading:

If you watch this video and find yourself siding with the [transgressor], please realize that you are not only insane but evil.

twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1409265099081015298

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]The comments in response to Matt Walsh (previously unknown to me) discussing the video are worth reading:

If you watch this video and find yourself siding with the [transgressor], please realize that you are not only insane but evil.

twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1409265099081015298[/quote]
I thought this guy used to be a wokeyblokey, but I may be getting him mixed up with some other white guy with a beard and glasses. Good on him, anyway.

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]The comments in response to Matt Walsh (previously unknown to me) discussing the video are worth reading:

If you watch this video and find yourself siding with the [transgressor], please realize that you are not only insane but evil.

twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1409265099081015298[/quote]
This tweet under his original is particularly interesting.