So Mumsnet ignored our request to have something to do with 'feminism' or 'women' in the name of the 'naughty step' subtopic

[StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind]

So we now have

Feminist Chat (which was our space anyway)

Sex and gender debate

If they had to go ahead with this spineless nonsense plan, many of us on the preferred names thread suggested it was essential to include feminism in the naughty step topic. You cannot take the debate on sex/gender away from feminism.

I think my suggestion was:

Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights

LibFem

So not only are they ignoring us and forging ahead with this crap, they've removed any relationship to feminism and women from the subtopic name.

Absolutely disgusted. This feels so reminiscent of the erasure of the word 'women' in so many contexts. To take the word feminist out of this subtopic- @MNHQ can you explain this? Because it's awful.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Quaggers, I'm actually having trouble accessing both pages. And I don't think it's nice to imply people having difficulty navigating it are stupid.

If you hit watched they’ll come up in your watched list and you can access the boards at the top of the page.

I agree and am pretty fucked off with the title “Sex and Gender debate”. I don’t need or want to debate sex and gender; I need and want to discuss how gender ideology and self-ID impacts on women’s lives and sex based rights and to discuss current affairs relating to this. It’s not about “debating sex and gender” FFS. That is just the derailing that goes on.

Women’s sex-based rights would be fine, thankyou, or failing that gender critical feminism, which whilst not perfect has become the general term for actual feminism feminism which focuses on sex as the axis of oppression.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Quaggers, I'm actually having trouble accessing both pages. And I don't think it's nice to imply people having difficulty navigating it are stupid.

Oh for goodness sake, I said others are making out like people are daft and can't find it! If you're having technical difficulties, that's not the same at all, hope it sorts itself out for you soon

An odd justification that because others didn't like the content of the board it needed to be renamed to be inclusive to them, even though they are still not going to be using it? So hurt feelings of users not on the board are more important than the thoughts and arguments of those active on the actual board?

It does feel like encouraging women who used FWR to sign up to premium as you "permitted" the debate was done in bad faith, when you later try to hide it by disguising the section so it doesn't have any mention of feminism.

I wouldn't have looked on this board with the new title because I didn't know about "the gender debate" and would have thought it a random irrelevant board to me. I came to discuss feminism, discovered these topics and my eyes were opened - like I'm sure many others.

If you hit watched they’ll come up in your watched list and you can access the boards at the top of the page

Yes, that's a good way to do it if anyone's having difficulties accessing

@OvaHere

Where are these "majority of Mumsnet users" whenever there's a gender critical poll in AIBU that usually favours the gender critical POV upwards of 80/90% with 1000s of votes?

Odd that considering voting is anonymous.

Yes. Every poll I've seen elsewhere on the site agrees with the majority view of FWR at around 95% .

This is even higher that the FWR consensus as the rest of the site doesn't seem to be as thronged with anti-woman activists.😉

Who are these users that have been listening to?

Hi @JustineMumsnet

Thanks as ever for this site and hosting this debate. I know you didn't need to and it would have been much easier not to. I can imagine the mail you've been getting.

One request that I'd like you to consider please changing the name to 'Sex and Gender Identity Debate'. I think that would be much clearer for these reasons:

There are 3 definitions that I know of for gender and this is confusing generally for everyone tbh at the moment.

1. Gender means the same as sex- widely replaced sex on a lot of things years ago. Presumably as more 'polite'.

e.g. there are loads of pregnancy threads about finding out the gender, guess the gender, sonographer wasn't sure about gender etc.
Apply for a bank card, loyalty card etc most forms for years have asked for gender when they mean sex.

1. Gender is used to mean sex role stereotypes. It's stil used that way on e.g. the WHO site. I will post an excerpt from their Gender Oppression page in a sec to show you what I mean. Loads of countries around the world have action plans around gender equality etc- meaning sex. The definition of gender as imposed sex role is still widely used. It's also been used a lot in feminist writing for a long time. So it would be good to have some separation because the concept of gender as the mechanism of our oppression is obviously a massive topic and unrelated to this board.

1. Gender ID meaning internal sense of what gender you are. I think think those who feel they need to be the opposite sex (transsexual) is included in this. This is the one that relates to this topic.

If essentially the word gender ends up as something for this section then a concept with a lot of history and use in feminism and understood meaning and used in loads of feminist books etc is pulled out of the main topic. That's the sex roles use of the word.

@Winederlust but with respect it isn't. Many elements of the sex and gender debate are social, philosophical or even theoretical. It is not all solely to do with sex based rights and in fairness I feel that the more important bit was the first bit - sex based rights are not limited to rights related to the sex and gender debate, for example abortion rights which are another very important and topical issue. So again, Sex Based Rights does not accurately describe the intention of this board, which is to discuss issues around gender identity and biological sex.

This thread was started to discuss the name of the board, given we haven't had much response or engagement from Mumsnet, especially after there was a long thread on preferred names.

But going back to splitting the board- how is this actually going to work in practice- when you look at the answers on the thread on feminism chat about the top three issues within feminism/affecting women atm, the answers kind of show what we were saying all along don't they? Sex and gender issues are integral to feminism. And fwiw from what I saw on that thread it was all pretty respectful and everyone just discussing their thoughts.

Orangecircling
The note from MNHQ was quite clear. The board named Sex and Gender debate

Which note Orange? I've not seen any note or announcement anywhere.

Language matters so much- yet women who believe in the reality of biological sex always seem to be bottom of the pile in having our chosen language respected. See also 'menstruators', 'pregnant people' etc.

Yes, this. Given that this assault on language is central to the debate, it does seem odd that MN have just gone ahead,
ignoring the many suggestions from posters and chosen a name for the board that nobody suggested and nobody seems to approve of...

Watch what the board?

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer no, any thread on the board.

Watch what the board?
There's no need to be rude Quaggers as per usual

How was that being rude?! I was just agreeing that that's a good way to do it!
Trying to be helpful.
By watch the board it means along the bottom or top of your device you should have Thread I'm on, Threads I'm Watching, Threads I've Started etc.
So say if you wanted to "watch" this thread, click on the top right hand side of the OP and there should be a drop down list.
Click "watch this thread" and it'll get added to your watch list.
The top of the thread will tell you what section it is in and you can click and access easily from there.

Also I don't really know what the point of splitting the board was if all the posters who think we're just a nasty bunch of vipers come over here to tell us we're all wrong and have nothing to complain about rather than starting all of the threads that they were supposedly unable to before

World health organisation (and they're a massively respected influential global org even if a lot of women around the world are very pissed off at them at the moment!

From here www.who.int/westernpacific/health-topics/gender

I've cut a few bits- it's long. The following are all on the same page and shows that the WHO see gender as sex role. Around the world as well, it's really standard to refer to gender when sex is meant- talking about abortion, education, loads of things where they definitely mean the role/ value in society due to sex.

'Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

Gender is hierarchical and produces inequalities that intersect with other social and economic inequalities'
'Gender influences people’s experience of and access to healthcare. The way that health services are organized and provided can either limit or enable a person’s access to healthcare information, support and services, and the outcome of those encounters. Health services should be affordable, accessible and acceptable to all, and they should be provided with quality, equity and dignity.'
'Consequently, women and girls face greater risks of unintended pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections including HIV, cervical cancer, malnutrition, lower vision, respiratory infections, malnutrition and elder abuse, amongst others. Women and girls also face unacceptably high levels of violence rooted in gender inequality and are at grave risk of harmful practices such as female genital mutilation, and child, early and forced marriage. WHO figures show that about 1 in 3 women worldwide have experienced either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.'

I don't find that a good solution I am afraid. I want to be able to access the areas simply, not do a song and dance about it.
Yes, I thought those posters would be happy to leave this part of the site alone and yet here they are...

JustineI agree with the points by PP that it would have been better to keep the word “feminism” in the title, as it steers the discussion to the political and social issues, and away from the personally targeted. As an example, sometimes someone will start a thread which is essentially just “a trans person did a bad thing”. At which point usually enough people say “what has this got to do with feminism” and the thread fades out. The board being clearly under feminism, and named as such, keeps the main focus on the conflict of rights. This board is about the only place on the internet where people can discuss that. A set of discussions about “sex and gender” is far, far, less useful to women who are helping each other navigate this new discourse that is re-designing our social structures and changing our language. I really think this move will have a negative effect on the quality of threads.

What even is gender?

@Stopsnowing

What even is gender?

I mean I don't know if I'm allowed to say? A social construct? Is that allowed? 😁

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

I don't find that a good solution I am afraid. I want to be able to access the areas simply, not do a song and dance about it. Yes, I thought those posters would be happy to leave this part of the site alone and yet here they are...

Do you use active? There’s normally a good range of boards on there.

I have to ask why posters who apparently are not interested in posting on this board and wish to hide it are so invested in what it is called. Why is that?

I don't find that a good solution I am afraid. I want to be able to access the areas simply, not do a song and dance about it

OK, fair enough, hope it sorts out for you soon or find a better way of doing it (genuinely)

Yes, I thought those posters would be happy to leave this part of the site alone and yet here they are...

And you say I'M the one being rude?!
I was genuinely trying to help.

@CriticalCondition

I have to ask why posters who apparently are not interested in posting on this board and wish to hide it are so invested in what it is called. Why is that?

🤔😁

To be frank, I don't want to have to be 'live' on a thread all the time. I find numerous notifications annoying, but are obviously needed to keep up with a thread. Your solution means I have to always be on an active thread and I don't necessarily want that. I want to be able to view the boards and decide what I want to post on.
A drop down is needed.