Keira Bell and Mrs A vs. Tavistock - Court of Appeal hearing 23 & 24 June 2021

[FindTheTruth]

The appeal hearing will be live streamed this Wednesday 23 & Thursday 24 June, 10:30am

Background

1. The High Court decided in Mrs A and Keira Bell’s favour on 1st December 2020 that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones are experimental treatments which cannot be given to children in most cases without application to the court. Full details of the original case:

www.transgendertrend.com/keira-bell-high-court-historic-judgment-protect-vulnerable-children/

1. The High Court decided in the case of AB on 26 March 2021 thatPARENTScan consent to their children receiving puberty blocking treatment when their children lack the capacity to consent.

1. Court of Appeal 23 & 24 June 2021 Keira Bell and Mrs A’s legal team is dealing with legal submissions from 7 intervenors who want to see the judgement of the Divisional Court overturned. “A significant task in defending the judgement of the Divisional Court. We are facing very well resourced opponents – the Tavistock being funded by the State and the other intervenors”.

I know quite a few kids affected by this. Quite a few adults too.

It has amazed me some of the things i have heard over the past few weeks - from children saying it's transphobic not to fancy trans people to adults not realising the dangers of things like mixed sex rugby, or overnight residentials.

@ArabellaScott

This is worse than "sunk cost". It's "sunk crimes against children". Their entire psyche is bound up in the belief that they've been doing the right thing - that they were helping these children.

It's complete capture - regulatory and policy writ large - and has been allowed to happen to child medicine. Adult political groups dictating the nature of untested medical treatment being used on children.

The parallels to when this has happened before in history are unthinkable.

@rabbitwoman

I don't have a legal mind at all so I am wondering if there is something I have missed, or something I have misunderstood - when I read the Tavistock / forstater/ Stonewall stuff I think it must be so obvious, all you have to do is take a second to absorb it and it is obvious there is a huge problem..... Of course, I have listened to the discourse on here throughout it all, and followed links and read articles, listened to interviews -it seems like such a clear cut case to me, why don't Stonewall and the Tavistock just admit defeat and start trying to heal? Do they know something I don't, is there something up their sleeves? Do the Tavistock really think they have a hope of overturning this?

I recognise that I am in a giant echo chamber a lot of the time and I have tried to find a convincing counter argument - anything. But there is nothing that stands up to scrutiny - so if anyone can suggest anything to me, point me in the right direction, I would be intrigued.

Where is Robin White when you need her!?

I’m never that far away but I have done a 12-hour legal day today, start tomorrow delivering some training and am ending it with an on-line session on the Forstater judgment.

I note the comments by other countries mentators about not believing trans children are trans. I never seek to speak for others’ experiences but I knew how I felt about myself from 7 or 8 and that has never varied, so I would love to know how folk are able to speak for people they don’t know and have never met.

@highame

Foxy took a case to the family court and the Judge allowed, in that case, but only in that case, for the parents to consent but this was because the child was already on the medication. The Judge also made it very clear that his decision in that case was in no way and he was very adamant, that this should not interfere with the Bell case

Oh I had never grasped that distinction! Thanks, good to know.

So when TRAs crow about having had the Bell decision reversed via the parental consent get out, it’s absolute bollocks?

Do you not think RobinMoiraWhite when considering children's wishes, desires or preferences that adults have a role, not just to love, support and at times affirm children but also to safeguard them?
At times this is hard. Children and young people often believe that they know best. All the girls in the Rotherham, Oxford etc scandals believed that their abusers cared for them - they sought them out, defying adults trying to keep them safe. Most parents and professionals who work with children encounter children consciously engaging in behaviour that is self sabotaging and dangerous. That's why we have laws that protect children from getting tattoos, having sex, drinking, buying knives and glue and so on. And that's why we make a distinction between children (people as you term them above) and adults.

Adults, in our roles as parents, professionals and via the courts have a responsibility to intervene when a child is engaging in behaviours that might pose them harm - often making dispassionate judgements, weighing up the risks to children from particular courses of action. .

Why do some people believe that this particular group of children should be exempt from the safeguarding (in the broadest sense) protections that adults normally give to children? That is in terms of protecting children from age inappropriate issues, use of untested medication, self harming practices and so on?

I note the comments by other countries mentators about not believing trans children are trans. I never seek to speak for others’ experiences but I knew how I felt about myself from 7 or 8 and that has never varied, so I would love to know how folk are able to speak for people they don’t know and have never met.

I don't believe children are 'trans', because I have never seen an explanation of what makes a child 'trans' which is not about stereotypes. Can you explain?

If children are to be medicated for this state of 'being trans', there must be objective diagnostic criteria to distinguish genuine 'trans children' from those who just don't like the stereotypes for their sex.

Until I see an objective description of exactly how a 'trans child' can be diagnosed, I will continue to believe that it's not possible for children to be 'trans'.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Do you not think RobinMoiraWhite when considering children's wishes, desires or preferences that adults have a role, not just to love, support and at times affirm children but also to safeguard them? At times this is hard. Children and young people often believe that they know best. All the girls in the Rotherham, Oxford etc scandals believed that their abusers cared for them - they sought them out, defying adults trying to keep them safe. Most parents and professionals who work with children encounter children consciously engaging in behaviour that is self sabotaging and dangerous. That's why we have laws that protect children from getting tattoos, having sex, drinking, buying knives and glue and so on. And that's why we make a distinction between children (people as you term them above) and adults.

Adults, in our roles as parents, professionals and via the courts have a responsibility to intervene when a child is engaging in behaviours that might pose them harm - often making dispassionate judgements, weighing up the risks to children from particular courses of action. .

Why do some people believe that this particular group of children should be exempt from the safeguarding (in the broadest sense) protections that adults normally give to children? That is in terms of protecting children from age inappropriate issues, use of untested medication, self harming practices and so on?

Just to add to these very good points, if a child's parents are convinced the child is “really” the sex that they are not, the child can quite easily be led to believe this is so, and believe that their lives will be ruined if they don’t get blockers.

Children are extremely vulnerable to their own parent’s influence.
I think the raising of the age at which young people can get married, from 16 to 18, is a relevant comparison. 16 year olds could get married with their parents’ consent, but it is now recognised that that is not always in the teenager’s best interest. In many of those cases, the 16 year old hasn’t been forced, but convinced, that getting married is a wonderful thing. Younger children are even more vulnerable to the earnest beliefs of the parents.

..... But you didn't transition as a child, Robin, you transitioned ten years ago.

How can you advocate for children to go through a very intensive medical procedure that you yourself did not go through? You went through a complete puberty, how do you know what it would feel like to be on puberty blockers as a child?

I would love to know how folk are able to speak for people they don’t know and have never met.

That's called empathy.

And both advocates of and opponents of childhood medical procedures for "trans" are doing that, right?

And this isn't "people", it's children. Children do not always know themselves and need to be protected from making bad decisions by adults.

Your personal sample of one doesn't tell us much. Doesn't even tell us whether you, as someone who ended up transitioning, would have been better off undergoing these treatments. (I don't believe you said so explicitly, but I assume you think you should have had your puberty blocked?)

And your experience doesn't even touch the ethical issues for doing this to an a whole cohort of kids who are likely to just turn out gay.

Excellent posts MrsOvertonsWindow and Fallingirl.

I don't understanding how this can be happening at the same time at the Sonia Appleby one - surely the judgements can be conflicting?

The thing that always confuses me is why so very many adult TW are so adamant their bodies are female as they are, and yet the children are being encouraged to change theirs at a very fundamental level.
Perplexing.

I was just about to post the same. I have said this many times. All these proud transwomen whose bodies they proclaim as female, no need to alter, those transwomen who have enjoyed adult experiences, even those who are parents: where are you all? Why aren’t you vocally advocating for children to wait, because their male/female bodies can be proudly female/male? Telling these kids what they’ll miss out on if they avoid puberty? The silence is deafening.

Update from Good Law Project: goodlawproject.org/update/threatens-young-peoples-rights/

Excerpt: We have filed our intervention to the Court of Appeal arguing that transgender teenagers should be able to consent to treatment the same way teenagers with other medical conditions can.

(So being trans is a medical condition )

Update from Gendered Intelligence: genderedintelligence.wordpress.com/2021/06/21/intervening-on-the-bell-v-tavistock-appeal/

Excerpt: Many of us are frustrated with the case and its outcomes for healthcare. Many of us are scared. At Gendered Intelligence we believe that outside of the court is not the time to express those sentiments, and we’re bringing a show of force through positivity instead. Our young people exist, are thriving in being their wonderful selves, and are being incredibly brave in even showing up in face of what may be outright hostility. We know that we couldn’t stop them independently showing up and being visible if we tried, so we’re instead offering to help create a safe and supportive space for them. It’s what we do best!

Several members of our team will also be there, as well as parents and carers of some of those wonderful young people. Legal restrictions around the size of groups means that we are not organising or encouraging more than 30 to attend. If higher numbers are present we will be following advice from local officials, as well as keeping to safe distances, in line with COVID guidance and advice.

We are proud to stand in coalition with subject experts and co-interveners Brook and the Endocrine Society, as well as having the backing of legal experts The Good Law Project. Thanks to this intervention, the court will hear submissions from GI — the only trans-led organisation given a voice in this appeal — and other experts in reproductive health, young people’s competency, and endocrinology.
...
We are cautiously hopeful that logic and compassion will ultimately prevail, and we will keep you updated every step of the way. Solidarity and strength.

Placemaking. The semantics debate has been an unwelcome distraction. Thanks for this thread.

@rabbitwoman

..... But you didn't transition as a child, Robin, you transitioned ten years ago.

How can you advocate for children to go through a very intensive medical procedure that you yourself did not go through? You went through a complete puberty, how do you know what it would feel like to be on puberty blockers as a child?

The alternative, is that you are directing these kids to go through a puberty they do not want, and then face painful surgeries in later life to reverse that puberty.

Regret levels are extremely low, and no-one is advocating hormone therapy or surgeries until these kids are 18.

The parents are allowed to make the decisions for their children, as we all do. That is appropriate and I don't question others who would know their children best.

The alternative, is that you are directing these kids to go through a puberty they do not want, and then face painful surgeries in later life to reverse that puberty.

Puberty is not optional, it is a critical part of development, eg laying down bone mass, brain development...

The parents are allowed to make the decisions for their children, as we all do. That is appropriate and I don't question others who would know their children best.

Sadly parents don't always do the best for their children.

The alternative, is that you are directing these kids to go through a puberty they do not want, and then face painful surgeries in later life to reverse that puberty.

Not wanting puberty but need it for adult health. Puberty is not optional if you want a healthy adult body.

Painful surgeries later in life? As opposed to multiple complications from experimental surgeries done on prepubertal tissue requiring bowel and thigh tissue supplementation to create a proximity of the desired effect, with complication rates high and multiple revisions necessary done at a young age instead? Well that’s a fair swap . A plastic surgeon who used to do procedures on adult trans patients told me it’s inconceivable to him doing it people who have never been through puberty and is horrified it’s even being done.

Regret levels are extremely low, and no-one is advocating hormone therapy or surgeries until these kids are 18.

No one has any idea about the regret rates of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and no one has published any data. The “fewer than 1%” lie refers to those in the Netherlands who were asked if they regretted their gonadectomy. No one has any idea how many women will regret their testosterone for example. How could they? It’s an ongoing experiment, as the judges ruled.

The parents are allowed to make the decisions for their children, as we all do. That is appropriate and I don't question others who would know their children best.

This is mostly true, apart from when it blatantly isn’t and people need to safeguard those children. Anyone who works with children would recognise there are times when parents do not know what’s best, and it’s compounded by the fact health professionals are acting outside of an evidence base and treating for ideological reasons.

But you know all that.

You’re vocally supportive of kids being medicated and medicalised for life Mishy perhaps you can explain why there are adults who proclaim their bodies don’t need alteration - Alex Drummond, for example - and those who having been lucky enough to have adult experiences, but aren’t supporting children to be happy with the body they have so they too can experience the same. Why the silence?

The alternative, is that you are directing these kids to go through a puberty they do not want, and then face painful surgeries in later life to reverse that puberty.

Do you really believe that puberty can be reversed?

As for 'puberty they do not want', do you think puberty is optional? It is a normal part of human development, and if it doesn't occur at the expected time that is a reason for medical investigation and possible intervention. It's not something that children 'choose' to happen to them.

Regret levels are extremely low, and no-one is advocating hormone therapy or surgeries until these kids are 18.

Hormone blocking with powerful drugs is a form of 'hormone therapy'. Can you post a link to your evidence about regret levels?

The parents are allowed to make the decisions for their children, as we all do. That is appropriate and I don't question others who would know their children best.

This would include (as reports from staff at the Tavistock has shown) parents who are homophobic and would prefer a straight daughter to a gay son (or vice versa).

It would also include (as reported by one clinician in the Times) parents who are paedophiles who are sexually abusing their children.

Anastassis Spiliadis stated in his evidence in Sonia Appleby's court case last week that it would appear that in some cases children were being referred because of other types of abuse on the part of the parents such as FII.

And yet you think that all these parents should be allowed to consent to this treatment on behalf of their children?

I find it profoundly sad that the vast majority of adult men who transition choose to retain their penis*, and many transition after having fathered children, yet they are encouraging young people to lose their sexual function and fertility. There's no way that a young person can understand the magnitude of what they are giving up.

*(I think it's 95% according to GIRES)

I am continually bemused by the idea of having to medicalise kids who don't want to go through puberty.

On the whole, kids hate puberty, especially girls dealing with breasts and periods. I absolutely hated puberty, and now, 35 years later, still hate having periods which of course are slowly getting worse due to imposing menopause which, by the way, I really am hating.

My dad hates getting old. He was strong and very virile up until about 5 years ago, now suddenly he's old and frail and his faculties are going and he cannot do the things he used to any more - and he finds it very distressing.

A lot of women find pregnancy hugely distressing, and the changes that come with it, and breastfeeding.....

Why is it that distress with puberty and possibly a whole range of other things that might be going on at that time is suddenly being conflated with gender dysphoria, which is a very specific condition? Why aren't we just helping our kids through it to the other side as healthy adults?

And frankly, it seems some of you haven't read the Tavistock files!!! Or seen evidence of detransitioners - or are you ignoring it?

We don't know how many people regret transition because the clinics don't follow up on people who fail to attend. And, many people don't go to clinics for treatment, there is a growing number of people self medicating because the waiting lists are so unacceptably long. This is why I object to the Bell judge calling this an "experiment" - experiments gather data, what was done at the Tavistock failed to meet the requirements of an experiment.

There isn't a solution to the waiting lists because clinics seem to have a chronic staff retention problem. I think the tweets from Sonia Appleby's case might given an indication of why.

It's a real heavyweight court tomorrow - the Lord Chief Justice, the Master of the Rolls, and another very senior Lady Justice who specialised in family law at the bar.

I’d be interested to know how many people who donated to the Good Law Project’s work challenging Parliament’s cronyism would be horrified to learn their money is also being funnelled into this appeal. Unless JM can confirm all donation funds are ringfenced?