Mumsnet is hiving off sex/gender issues into a sub-forum

[YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire]

It sounds like it's happening:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please

Many of us have explained how much we didn't want this and how unworkable it will be, but Mumsnet won't listen.

I honestly feel betrayed, and am just waiting for final confirmation then will delete my account.

Et tu, Justine?

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

*There are lots of threads relating to trans issues because that’s what’s important to people just now. People have a lot of opinions they want to discuss.

I’m calling it ‘trans issues’ because we don’t know what the new board is to be called - what do you want me to use instead?*

Back to the questions. It's not for me to compel you to call a new board anything- nor would I want to. I just thought given your desire for us to be 'inclusive' and 'compromising' on the language on period products, your have had some sensitivity on the fact that describing a board as a 'trans board' could well be offensive as it implies that trans and gender issues are separate to feminism when most of us here believe that to be incorrect.

Ok. What should I use instead?

describing a board as a 'trans board' could well be offensive as it implies that trans and gender issues are separate to feminism when most of us here believe that to be incorrect.

Not only that, but implies that the new board would be dedicated to trans issues. And it feels like a bid for ownership.

Any new board should simply be about every aspect of feminism INCLUDING discussions looking at how trans issues affect women's rights & needs. It should be where feminists are allowed to discuss whatever they want, as opposed to the 'Mimsy Feminism' board, where the thought police will make sure they do not.

Furthermore, won't such a split involve separating demographics a bit?
Libfems tend to be young and middle class from what I have seen.
Radfems is more broad, with older, those with children being very much represented.

So we're ending up in a situation where young women aren't benefiting from the experience of older women and older women aren't benefiting from the outlook of younger women.

That sounds like patriarchy 101 to me.
Haven't older women's voices historically always been silenced? This feels very familiar.

Mousey makes some very good points. (And yes, this radfem is older & broader )

@Pumperthepumper I don't know how it's even possible to engage with you when all you want to do on multiple threads is throw questions back at others when they've already made their thoughts clear. I don't really care what you call it- except that calling it the 'trans board' really implies you don't have much respect for those who see trans/gender issues as intrinsic to feminism/women's rights discussions and it's interesting when you have posted a lot asking what should women be prepared to compromise on- clearly you think language matters for one group but maybe not another.

[quote StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind]@Pumperthepumper I don't know how it's even possible to engage with you when all you want to do on multiple threads is throw questions back at others when they've already made their thoughts clear. I don't really care what you call it- except that calling it the 'trans board' really implies you don't have much respect for those who see trans/gender issues as intrinsic to feminism/women's rights discussions and it's interesting when you have posted a lot asking what should women be prepared to compromise on- clearly you think language matters for one group but maybe not another.[/quote]
I think that’s a bit of a stretch. I’m using ‘trans issues’ because it’s the trans threads that are in question here and I don’t have another name for them. If you give me another name, I’ll use it.

I think my rad fem transformation has directly been influenced by the older and broader I get.
It would make a good visual on a graph (with a massive peak when I gave birth)

Pumper there have been suggestions upthread, as well as a whole thread dedicated to talking about it. I think you being deliberately goady, it's not about "trans issues" it's about women's rights, as I think you well know.

Or rad fem and lib fem if you so choose. Plenty of options.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer I agree with you there.

Fwiw I consider myself aligned with radfem- I'm 33 so still quite young, I do have young children and some of my concerns are based on the impact of children, as well as women overall. I've always been interested in feminism but since leaving an abusive relationship I've probably lost some of the 'be kind' sentiment that I may have previously held. I see the discrimination of women of all ages, not just the young, not just older, and want to see this discrimination end. Fuck 'being kind' when it's hurting women and children. I hope that sentiment comes across as intended as it's not about being discriminatory against any other group but I'm not going to stand by and smile when this ideology leaves women and girls (and also young boys) vulnerable to even more abuse.

I get really pissed off with a lot of my generation/slightly younger who don't really give a shit or understand that our own mothers/grandmothers fought a lot for women's rights/equal pay etc, they see suffrage as being in the distant past and don't really give a shit about what those women did and what other generations of women have continued to do since then. They just want to pedal BS about porn being liberating and 'be kind' bla bla bla and I have no time for it.

Sorry if this has been asked before but what will happen to long running threads like "Break it down for me ", will they still be available ?

@purpleboy

Pumper there have been suggestions upthread, as well as a whole thread dedicated to talking about it. I think you being deliberately goady, it's not about "trans issues" it's about women's rights, as I think you well know.

It’s not though - it’s specifically the threads about trans issues that are in discussion here.

* using ‘trans issues’ because it’s the trans threads that are in question here *

I would dispute this. Take sport for example, the inclusion of people born male into female sport is not a trans issue, it is a women's right to be able to participate fairly and safely in a sporting activity that is the issue.
Moving male prisoners into female prisons is not a trans issue , the issue is the safety and dignity of the female prisoners and how they are being ignored.
The removal of female changing rooms in schools is not a trans issue but rather how schools discriminate against girls.
The forcing of rape victims to lie on the stand is not a trans issue but women being abused yet again in the courts.
Removing the right of a female patient to a single sex ward is not a trans issue but the continued ignoring of female patients needs.

@334bu well said!

@334bu exactly what you've said. @MNHQ are you reading this and seeing why you cannot separate these issues? They are women's issues, 334bu has described it perfectly.

Agree with everything 334bu has said.

@334bu

* using ‘trans issues’ because it’s the trans threads that are in question here *

I would dispute this. Take sport for example, the inclusion of people born male into female sport is not a trans issue, it is a women's right to be able to participate fairly and safely in a sporting activity that is the issue.
Moving male prisoners into female prisons is not a trans issue , the issue is the safety and dignity of the female prisoners and how they are being ignored.
The removal of female changing rooms in schools is not a trans issue but rather how schools discriminate against girls.
The forcing of rape victims to lie on the stand is not a trans issue but women being abused yet again in the courts.
Removing the right of a female patient to a single sex ward is not a trans issue but the continued ignoring of female patients needs.

Spot on.

334b. 🏌️‍♀️👏👏👏👏

I think women’s sex based rights are under attack and that is central to feminism. I don’t understand why we would hive off a central issue? It makes it seem “niche” when it is anything but.

If people aren’t interested then scroll on by.

I wonder what pressure Mumsnet are under to do this? FOI request anyone?

I am politically liberal and I am a feminist. Concerns over the erosion of liberalism, in particular how trans ideology is interacting with female rights is what brings me here. I am sure as shit not a lib fem, because I don't believe them to be either liberal or feminist.

I am DISGUSTED with Mumsnet over this and doubly so as you seem to be using invasive guerilla advertising of late.

What are you going to do when a topic on the new and improved feminist chat gets comments about sex and gender or even dares to bring trans ideology into it (as they obviously will because it is kind of fundamental to feminism)?

Porn, pay gap, violence, fgm, healthcare, aging and invisibility. Remove the burdens and misconceptions of gender and sex and you just have people.

I'll see how it unfolds, if it is just the title and sorting based on whether something is purely theoretically about the trans issue but the content can evolve however, then fine, but I think my Mumsnet journey is probably coming to an end and I'll interact by keeping an eye on the various groups that are set up and twitter.

Putting "trans" in the title of the new board would be completely inappropriate and make no sense at all. We don't want a space to talk about trans issues; we need a space to talk about female rights and how women are disadvantaged and discriminated against because of our sex.

How about no board remains called "Feminism chat" so that things feel fair?

We could have "Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights" and "Liberal Feminism."

The word "feminism" is in both titles and neither feels belittling or derogatory.

(This suggestion is for if Mumsnet does split the board, as it seems likely they will. I think MouseyTheVampireSlayer's concern about younger and older feminists not being able to learn from each other is well founded.
Possibly a better solution would just be to combine all of the boards into one, as anything posted on one of the smaller boards is currently overlooked by most people. It would make sense- there are plenty of threads started about activism in the "Feminist Chat" section at the moment!)

I wonder what pressure Mumsnet are under to do this? FOI request anyone?

MN are not a public body so not covered by the FOIA.