What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

@TheRebelle

We will have to agree to disagree on that then.

I do not think a woman is the same as a man who’s had surgery to his genitals, I do not think I’m alone in this.

You're not.

Women already have a definition, for goodness sake.

Is a soldier who tragically lost his penis in a bomb explosion not a man?

I do not think a woman is the same as a man who’s had surgery to his genitals, I do not think I’m alone in this.

I'm sure youre not but plenty disagree.

So yes, we can agree to disagree.

A few years ago, you're probably right. Women would have tried to be accommodating to transexuals. Women would have tried to be understanding and sympathetic.

Since then, there has been an utter onslaught of "No Debate!" "TERF!" "Bigot" and worse thrown at women.

We've had the likes of Jessica Yaniv, Rachel McKinnon, Shon Faye, Danielle Muscato, Lily Madigan... I could go on!... all sneering that they can go into our spaces, do what they hell they like and there's nothing we can do about it.

We've seen the clips of men identifying as women prancing and dancing - and worse! - in the ladies toilets, belying the claim that "we just want to pee".

We have seen women and children intimidated and assaulted by men and trans women in women's spaces. There are documented media reports of these that you can find easily enough through google or by looking back on these boards.

All that has helped to harden our hearts and decide that no, sorry: we'd really rather these people stayed well away from our spaces because we can't be sure who and what they are. We have seen what too many of them are and we don't like it at all.

I think this is what Debbie Hayton and India Willoughby meant when they said that TRAs had made things so much worse for them. They're right.
If you want things back they way they were, then you'll need to try and undo the damage these people have done. How do you propose to do that? I'm not sure you can. They've wrecked things for you. So probably your best option is 3rd spaces.

Is a soldier who tragically lost his penis in a bomb explosion not a man?

Ridiculous argument.

It denies dysphoria, dysmorphia and endocronological changes during transition

Oh and gender reassignment is not a mere absence of a penis.

Women are not merely men without penises. What a ridiculous and offensive notion.

As we've already established there's no obvious way to distinguish between the different types of transsexual and transgender people who were born male, whether they hold a GRC or not.

As we've already established there's no obvious way to distinguish between the different types of transsexual and transgender people who were born male, whether they hold a GRC or not.

Even if I accept that, it doesn't make the solution to revoke all transsexual rights.

I am not responsible for what men do. Why should I be punished for it?

That is a massive cost for a minority, and to force them into disabled is unfair on disabled people who need to access it..For the small minority of trans people, letting them do their business and taking action against anyone who misbehaves is the way forward - and has been operating in that way for the last 11 years with very few incidents. Trans people are just not interested in anything in the bathroom then others also wish to do. Men just dont pretend to be trans to go into the toilets and offend! It would be easier to pretend to be a cleaner

Mishy, I agree disabled loos should be kept for the disabled. Yes, third spaces would cost money, but would provide a good answer that is fair to all.

It’s not as simple as ‘trans people just doing their business and leave them to it’, some women will have religious reasons to want single sex, some women will be victims of assault, some will simply want a single sex space for privacy and dignity. Regarding male cleaners in female toilets, they always put a sign up so women are aware, so I don’t think it’s comparable.

If we were to follow your suggestion about leaving people enter and then just take action against anyone who misbehaves, why couldn’t we apply that to all people of the male sex? My male relatives are lovely - why shouldn’t they use the female toilets? Well, the answer to that is that other women don’t know them and don’t know they’re lovely. Even my friends who do know them and know they’re lovely might not want to share a toilet with them for reasons of privacy and dignity. I wouldn’t take that as them casting aspersions on my male family members.

I understand why TW would not want to use the male toilets. I hope they can, in return, understand why women do not want them in the female toilets.it’s in no way casting aspersions on them or implying they have bad intentions. The simple fact is many women wish to keep their toilets single sex no matter how decent or nice the male people and TW are.

Let's get away from toilets.

Let's talk about dormitories. Where I'm supposed to relax and sleep.

Discuss.

None of the good men are responsible for what bad men do either, no one is suggesting they are.

@BlueLipstickRocks

As we've already established there's no obvious way to distinguish between the different types of transsexual and transgender people who were born male, whether they hold a GRC or not.

Even if I accept that, it doesn't make the solution to revoke all transsexual rights.

I am not responsible for what men do. Why should I be punished for it?

Good lord blue, expecting you to respect women's spaces isn't a punishment.

How on earth did we get to this!

There is a currently a gender GP clip of a five-year-old child 'coming out' as trans. And the parents saying she enjoys climbing trees and doesn't want to wear dresses, so she must be a boy.

This damaging, sexist stereotyping must stop.

Women are adult human females. That's it. That's the criteria.

There is no reward or punishment system attached to it!

How can anyone reasonably disagree? A biological male does not stop being male because they have surgery to their penis. The disagreement is surely in the extent to which we consider them to have women's rights, not that they actually are in every way the same as a biological female!

I can see you want to get back to the op so just one more comment please.

No, I'm sorry. Women are not a validation tool, that male born individuals can utilise to validate their ideas of what a woman is.

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.

Anyway will leave it there as don’t want to derail.

I understand why TW would not want to use the male toilets. I hope they can, in return, understand why women do not want them in the female toilets.it’s in no way casting aspersions on them or implying they have bad intentions.

Of course it's casting aspertions.

You say "women don't want them"... surveys have shown that the majority of women accept post op transsexuals and refuse self ID.

It is profoundly unfair to dismiss transsexuals by simply concluding its all just men, not our problem.

The law has been passed and whilst reform is needed I feel confident in saying that the chances of the Gov deciding that all transsexuals should now be legally declared men and use men's spaces is zero.

I am very much not unsympathetic but beither am I going to sacrifice myself because I am to be made responsible for my biological sex class.

On a daily basis I have had nothing but encouragement and support from women when using the toilets. From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't. I remember a month into hormones a stranger asked me how I was getting on with them - she was able to tell somehow just by looking at me!

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.*

Absolutely spot on.

But women are not therapeutic aids

Legally, if the stipulation to invoke single-sex exemptions has to involve a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" could businesses not use third mixed-sex spaces alongside single-sex spaces and fulfil that criteria?

If the argument is that the number is far too small for businesses to convert facilities then for provisions such as toilets for example, would the "far too small" group not be able to used disabled toilets? I'm talking just of those who hold a GRC, not everyone under the trans umbrella.

I'm not disabled and so am acutely aware they are not my spaces to give away. I also don't know how an additional 5000 users would impact current provisions for disabled people so it might be a complete non-starter but in theory might that work?

This may be very simplistic but if there are so few GRC-holding people that not everywhere will be able to accommodate for them (and others who wish for mixed-sex spaces - I don't mean solely as

*But women are not therapeutic aids"

And transsexuals are not disposable

And many, many transpeople do not suffer from dysphoria. In fact there has been a concerted campaign for being trans not be seen as anything medical.

You say "women don't want them"... surveys have shown that the majority of women accept post op transsexuals and refuse self ID

The issue is how many of the trans women currently invading women's toilets, or campaigning for the right to invade them are post op?

@Fieldofgreycorn

I can see you want to get back to the op so just one more comment please.

No, I'm sorry. Women are not a validation tool, that male born individuals can utilise to validate their ideas of what a woman is.

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.

Anyway will leave it there as don’t want to derail.

Transwomen. can 'blend into society' seamlessly with a third option. It would be used by men and women, alike.

But that's never been acceptable.

In fairness I don't think bluelipstickrocks is claiming transpeople suffer from dysphoria and draws a distinction between transsexuals and transgendered individuals.

From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't.

^

This sentence took my breath away. As a woman who has since a young girl been taught to look over my shoulder in the street, and even been assaulted at work and on public transport by a random stranger, you can't make out that it could be women's fault for not assessing who is a threat.

I'm not disabled and so am acutely aware they are not my spaces to give away. I also don't know how an additional 5000 users would impact current provisions for disabled people

In other words anything that gives some women what they want without compromise.

We already have a law. You may not like it and are free to seek to change it but until then the law recognises transsexuals with a GRC as legally female with certain rights that brings.

So many offering "solutions". We already have one. It's not a brilliant one but it's the law and you don't get to take it back without proper process.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*But women are not therapeutic aids"

And transsexuals are not disposable

Can I ask who said they were disposable and in what way are you using the word disposable?