My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

Ours is a temporary structure with tiny curtains. I wouldn't be happy to see a man there particularly but I am old enough to remember the safe feeling of women only spaces and how liberating they were. Those days have gone.

I have heard of very awful things happening to trans women and terrible discrimination towards them

What kind of thing are we talking about? I'm not sure what page you're on.

The upside, I fervently hope, is that teenagers are entirely swayed by what’s fashionable, and what’s fashionable now is going to be something they’ll want to reject in a few years’ time; so fungers crossed that in the end we can rely on teenagers’ own fickleness in reacting against previous cohorts’ pet ideas.

Ten or twelve years ago at the end of the last Labour government all my students were very socially conservative, very gendered (girls all dolled up in makeup and dresses for lectures, boys v openly homophobic); and they were simply not interested in any kind of identity politics, which they thought very old-fashioned. On the contrary - they were all self-styled “radical conservatives” and pro-Nick Clegg “radical centrist” Lib Dem activists, as according to them, the new “kind conservatism” and the Big Society was the way forward 😂 (It’s quite hilarious to think of this now. I kind of miss those particular delusions….)

So, hopefully, in ten years’ time these “woke” delusions will be replaced with something else completely different, and gender identity will then be oh-so-old-fashioned. (Let’s just hope whatever replaces it is reasonably sane and not even worse.)

(All this is I know not reassuring for those whose kids are right in the middle of it….) Has anyone tried asking their teenagers why, if gender identity ideas are right, they’re so incoherent and contradictory? Logically trans and non-binary should be the opposite to each other, but they don’t seem to see that. How does believing fervently in a gender binary in the case of trans people, square with the ideas of the “non-binary” ones who are trying to get away from one altogether? If biological sex is a spectrum why are non-binary people rejecting biological sex because it’s too binary, since then sex would be non-binary anyway and they wouldn’t need to? You can’t believe in both things at the same time - the internal logics don’t work together.

They never seem to think about these contradictions, but gently pointing them out does flag up some of the conceptual incoherence and inconsistencies that are being papered over, and hopefully it might get some doubts going.

I don't think they think it matters if it makes no logical sense. They think can see into people's souls a La layla moran.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

Good grief it’s just a waiting area! The actual mammogram (as you may know, no assumptions being made either way) is not done in some sort of mixed sex group. It’s private!

''just a waiting area'' - men are banned from the waiting rooms as well. Its all single sex. There are several clinics where it would be an issue, as the room where you have to undress isn't the room where the X-Ray is taken.

I'm sorry that angers you. But there are women who would be unable to attend a mixed sex clinic for various reasons. So they are single sex, and it is legal.

metro.co.uk/2018/03/04/men-banned-from-waiting-rooms-to-support-women-through-breast-cancer-scares-7360349/

Tiktok doesn't sound like the greatest resource, but it might be useful for you and your daughter to look at the work of Judith Butler, Margaret Atwood and Gloria Steinem, all of whom are prominent feminists who advocate for trans rights as trans women are women. You may do well to listen to your daughter as he attitude towards treating people with kindness is brilliant.

@peachescariad

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They have not physically changed their sex. They have undergone gender reassignment surgery, not sex reassignment surgery.

Apologies for not using the correct term.I’m not au fait with the current politics but I meant if a man physically transitioned into being a woman.

Had a mammogram two weeks ago and because of ill fitting curtains found I was flashing the whole reception area. The nurse and I had a bit of a laugh but it would have been very different if it had been a mixed sex area.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Just an observation, but it seems to be mainly girls mentioned on this thread. Does anyone with sons have the same “be kind” and gender is a spectrum with their sons?

I have a 23 year old male assistant at work and he’s as gender critical as they come. Says it’s all bollocks.

Subbaxeo - Can you clarify what you mean by this, please?

I meant if a man …transitioned into being a woman.

Do you mean legally rather than physically - or did you mean the latter? If so, what do you mean by it?

Hopefully she is going to Sussex and Kathleen Stock will be her professor -

It isn't just TikTok. The BBC spent yesterday reporting Maya F as 'a woman who claims that people cannot change sex. Claims, not 'said;
And in every news bulletin and report they referred to that 'claim' as a 'belief'. 'Her belief that people cannot change sex' etc.

Weasel words.

I am another feminist who would like to see closer ground between women discriminated against through sex-based oppression, and Transwomen who undoubtedly also face discrimination - including actual transphobia.

We should be able to support someone being Trans - changing gender - without being accused of violence and transphobia because we recognise sex and gender as different things and with some different ramifications.

Apologies for not using the correct term.I’m not au fait with the current politics but I meant if a man physically transitioned into being a woman.
Very few transwomen have any form of genital surgery. Those who choose to take cross sex hormones may develop extra breast tissue or they may choose to have silicone implants put into their chests. Their risk of breast cancer might be somewhat higher than other men because of this but as there is already separate screening for men I do not see why this needs to impact the single sex provision for female patients.

I have two sons and my oldest just shrugs about most of it. He does think most woke things are a bit ridiculous and all of his friends say that people constantly posting how ‘woke’ they are are just a bit fake trying to get followers.

Apologies for not using the correct term.I’m not au fait with the current politics but I meant if a man physically transitioned into being a woman.

A man cannot "physically transition into being a woman" any more than I can physically transition into being a dolphin.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions I simply meant that if a man had surgery and taking long term hormone treatment to have female physical characteristics, then the risk of breast cancer is increased. So they come for screening. Incidentally, all visitors are banned from clinics unless they’re in a caring capacity because of Covid. And male patients coming to symptomatic clinics are in the same waiting room as women. But I’d imagine they are the ones feeling more embarrassed as it’s obviously a primarily female environment.

@Clarice99 - My apologies for the confusingly-worded post. That response was aimed at @Subbaxeo, not you.

There is no separate screening for men regarding breast cancer. So they come to the regular female screening clinics.

No surgery is necessary, not even if a man takes hormones to grow breasts.

And for women from conservative religions, or those in coercive/controlling relationships, mixed sex sessions could mean they are no longer to attend mammograms.

I’d imagine they are the ones feeling more embarrassed as it’s obviously a primarily female environment.

Without PREMs (Patient Reported Experience Measures) data, it's difficult to know with any degree of certainty.

Transmen registered as women automatically get invited for screening. If they are registered as male they need to speak to the gp to be referred if they still have breast tissue. So clearly biological sex does matter in this instance.

Lady

The American prison service is different to the U.K. And trans people are not routinely murdered here.

Trans people have legal rights to protection from discrimination and harassment here, under the Equality Act 2010.

Do you have any examples of discrimination against them in the U.K.?

@Lettera as far as I can see, gender = the collection of social stereotypes surrounding the outward physical appearance and social roles and behaviours expected from males and females in our patriarchal society.

A significant part of "living as" a woman or a man appears to involve being treated by others as being the opposite sex. This is why validation by having access unchallenged to single-sex spaces is so important.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Lady

The American prison service is different to the U.K. And trans people are not routinely murdered here.

Trans people have legal rights to protection from discrimination and harassment here, under the Equality Act 2010.

Do you have any examples of discrimination against them in the U.K.?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

"The number of trans people murdered in the UK is not officially recorded and murder victims may be misgendered, such as in media coverage of the murder of Naomi Hersi, a trans woman of colour from London, in 2018."

www.bps.org.uk/blogs/diversity-and-inclusion-taskforce/transgender-day-remembrance

The worst rows I've ever had with my daughter (early 20s) have been about this. I've been called every name under the sun, ignorant, transphobic, stupid. Our relationship felt seriously threatened by our opposing views.
Recently there are signs of the penny slowly dropping that the trans cult is a glitter covered turd. Unfortunately, it has come about in the worst possible way - a member of her uni friendship group was sexually assaulted by a trans woman in the same friendship group. I really feel for my daughter's friend, and what has happened to her. It's truly awful. It's an awful irony that the fact that it's something like this that seems to be waking them up to reality. That their ditzy, giggly little friend who liked to borrow their makeup and clothes is in fact a sexual predator. (I'm not saying all trans women are predators, far from it, before anyone piles on).
The woke still runs deep, but it feels like there has been a real shift in the total blind acceptance of before.
Sadly the friend didn't feel able to report this to the police or university authorities.