My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

@Clarice99, trans women who have taken hormones to physically transition have breasts.

When they cry about suicide rates and the hard time such people have - ask for the evidence please. They have more protection under the law than a boring ‘old’ (which is a protected characteristic by the way) woman. Ask why anyone can say they are female (no questions allowed) in Scotland to gain a place as a board member - brought in to ensure female representation in boards.

Women are abused and threatened for stating biological facts (not learned from tik tok - snigger) and yet this is ok? What about pharma in the US and the extremely wealthy individuals using their money and influence (didn’t amazon have a strop in a state and threaten to nor set up a distribution centre if they didn’t drop a proposed law?) to promote legislation and social change?

Insults and flouncing is hardly a reasoned or robust debate. I’d the OPs daughter is off to uni, god help her if she has a tutor or lecturer who actually tries to get them to debate and think for themselves.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

Missing the point entirely I’m sure, but I don’t think a mammogram clinic is a woman’s space - obviously the vast majority of patients who attend are women but men do sometimes get breast cancer and presumably if that is suspected they are sent to the nearest mammogram clinic?

@Subbaxeo - thanks for clarifying re: breasts

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They haven't physically changed sex. Hormones and surgery don't equal a change in sex. It just means what is is, taking hormones (and having surgery in some cases) and acquiring the associated risks of.

Yep had abuse too from teen dd for sticking up for women rights. I hope that when these girls are adults they might respect the fight but I feel brainwashing is happening in our schools and on SM

I haven't really made a big deal about talking through these issues with my DD. We talk about a lot of things and most of what we talk about when getting philosophical is about the difference between the structural (i.e the patriarchy) and the personal (choice, for want of a better description). How choices aren't made in a vacuum and how 'harm' and 'be kind' are wider than the immediate effect adjacent to you.
Taking a step back and a wider view makes you see things differently. I think she values fairness and integrity but avoids talking about gender issues with her friends as she doesn't see it the same way as many of them do. The peer pressure for opinion conformity is high.

Can any PP who says that it's possible to change gender but not sex explain what 'gender' is?

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They have not physically changed their sex. They have undergone gender reassignment surgery, not sex reassignment surgery.

and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against

In what sense?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against

In what sense?

I wondered that, too, and wondered what the evidence for that statement is.

@peachescariad

Trans women who have physically changed sex

They have not physically changed their sex. They have undergone gender reassignment surgery, not sex reassignment surgery.

Humans cannot change sex.

@Subbaxeo

Trans women who have physically changed sex are at greater risk than men because of the hormones taken. They are invited on the screening programme and can have mammograms. Men can also have mammograms if male breast cancer is suspected, and, yes, there is enough tissue.

Please tell me you don't actually believe men can change into women.

[quote Subbaxeo]@Clarice99, trans women who have taken hormones to physically transition have breasts.[/quote]
Do you really believe that taking cross-sex hormones changes sex in human beings?

@LadyOfLittleLeisure please don't insult the two hundred million missing women and girls, dead through murder or neglect for being female, or the two hundred million female victims of FGM, by saying 'TW' are discriminated against just as much.

The VAST majority of 'TW' are white, straight, middle class men. Don't EVER insult the women murdered by men every ten minutes. Don't insult the one in three women and girls who will face male violence at least once in their lives.

By saying these white, straight, middle class males are the same as they are, you slap the face of all the millions of women and girls who truly do suffer because they are FEMALE.

So kind to men....and so cruel to women.

There is just no need to conflate the two. Biological sex is a fact.

Trans issues are trans issues and do not cross over into facts. I often just don’t get it! Why are facts so controversial?

@toffeebutterpopcorn

When they cry about suicide rates and the hard time such people have - ask for the evidence please. They have more protection under the law than a boring ‘old’ (which is a protected characteristic by the way) woman. Ask why anyone can say they are female (no questions allowed) in Scotland to gain a place as a board member - brought in to ensure female representation in boards.

Women are abused and threatened for stating biological facts (not learned from tik tok - snigger) and yet this is ok? What about pharma in the US and the extremely wealthy individuals using their money and influence (didn’t amazon have a strop in a state and threaten to nor set up a distribution centre if they didn’t drop a proposed law?) to promote legislation and social change?

Insults and flouncing is hardly a reasoned or robust debate. I’d the OPs daughter is off to uni, god help her if she has a tutor or lecturer who actually tries to get them to debate and think for themselves.

@toffeebutterpopcorn "cry about suicide rates" ? Not a great way to phrase that. Anyway:

"the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

As far as why it's girls who are so into this, in part I think it's related to the fact that teen girls are much more often the leads in picking up new linguistic usages and new words and incorporating them into their groups.

This has been known for a long time, and in this case they've picked up the whole language and so what it represents seems to be clearly true.

It's also great for putting people into social hierarchies which is a big part of teen girl social life.

[quote GreenBlood]@LadyOfLittleLeisure please don't insult the two hundred million missing women and girls, dead through murder or neglect for being female, or the two hundred million female victims of FGM, by saying 'TW' are discriminated against just as much.

The VAST majority of 'TW' are white, straight, middle class men. Don't EVER insult the women murdered by men every ten minutes. Don't insult the one in three women and girls who will face male violence at least once in their lives.

By saying these white, straight, middle class males are the same as they are, you slap the face of all the millions of women and girls who truly do suffer because they are FEMALE.

So kind to men....and so cruel to women.[/quote]
@GreenBlood violence against women and girls is absolutely horrendous and I completely agree with you that the total number of women affected by it is enormous. I think trans women include themselves in the 'women' category though and also the amount of trans women as a proportion of people is really quite small so it would be more accurate to look at percentages affected to make a comparison. My point was more about dismissing all the pro-trans views as like a childish phase is rather rude and dismissive.

The suicide rates have been generally dispelled haven’t they, and the Samaritans have commented that these should not be stated as facts? It’s usually used as a shut down to conversation isn’t it?

Yes suicide is certainly an issue never to be taken lightly - nor used as a threat to close down discussion. ‘Cry’ was used more in the way it is used in an emotional way to about down an opponent or someone with differing views (shout, exclaim, etc).

@AlfonsoTheMango

Just to clarify:

Do you really believe that taking cross-sex hormones changes sex in human beings?

Absolutely not!

@Subbaxeo appears to hold the above view.

However, I do not. Never have. Never will.

I don't want the quoting to muddy the waters

I think trans women include themselves in the 'women' category though

It's not true though. They are male. Women are female.

Sex matters. Without acknowledging sex, we can't recognise the oppression women face for being female.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

Good grief it’s just a waiting area! The actual mammogram (as you may know, no assumptions being made either way) is not done in some sort of mixed sex group. It’s private!

Good grief it’s just a waiting area!

It's a waiting area where you need to take your bra off under your top.

@toffeebutterpopcorn I'm not actually sure, but I deliberately didn't use Stonewall as a source because I thought it might be considered biased.

@GreenBlood also to say, I don't particularly stand anywhere on the trans debate but I have heard of very awful things happening to trans women and terrible discrimination towards them. It's a tricky one because I see much of their plight as part of the hate the world has towards anything considered part of women's experience and yet I would hate to betray the sisterhood in any way. I feel like it is a debate where everyone loses.