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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer and the Labour Party Really Cannot Read the Room

414 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 09/06/2021 17:19

Labour and Self-id

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1402586773499244549

Rosie Duffield gets the predictable kicking in the comments. Still no public support for her. That's what the Labour leadership think about women's rights and women who have an opinion.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

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steakandcheeseplease · 10/06/2021 12:03

@IvyTwines2

To do this, and to do it through Pink News, fucking hell...
I know! I was actually 'WTF?' when I seen it on twitter Shock

I'm really starting to think Labour have been taken over by some weird shape shifting, lizard people, body snatchers.

Because I can't fathom why they have wrecked themselves so much.

With Maya Forstaters ruling today and stonewalls embarrassment - they really did back the wrong horse. Idiots.

merrymouse · 10/06/2021 12:15

But the actual policies on this make it clear that labour would do much more than the Tories

Yes - but I find it difficult to trust the policies based on their performance in this issue. I don’t understand how it’s possible to have any policy that isn’t based in material analysis.

steakandcheeseplease · 10/06/2021 12:21

Yes I agree @BlackForestCake.

Why would they need to score points when Labour were/are doing amazing at scoring their own goals. I was shouting at the TV at one point when Lisa Nandy was spewing her anti woman hate. I was Labour born and bred but these people have destroyed the Labour Party and what it actually meant for a hell of a lot of people.

Labour even told us to leave and called us transphobes when we just wanted to talk and open discussion.

You can't try and insinuate the Tories started this war culture because its the actual Labour MPs fucking this all up. Just look at Dawn Butler Shock They literally can't shut their mouth and do nothing.

The Tories didn't actually do anything for a long time they just stood still. Whilst this whole debacle was igniting they just did nothing which ironically made them a safer space. Then Lizz Truss stuck her neck out and said 'actually things are ok just as they are. Again - doing nothing. B

So they haven't actually done anything but must be laughing their tits off and some Labour MPs and now their Leader are still talking shite! You couldn't make it up.

And no I don't believe there was some secret tory target group with a conspiracy to create a 'culture war'. Thats just an excuse for a certain set of people unwilling to accept they have fucked up.

highame · 10/06/2021 12:30

How's that 'no debate' slogan going Sir Kier? cause there are wimms out here who have other ideas

FOJN · 10/06/2021 12:39

Yet you think they are now the party to save us all?

Good grief no. It's precisely because the Tories are so awful we can't quite believe Labours contempt for women. The Tories are shit but you can't blame them the kamikaze politics which have alienated so many women from Labour. The bottom line is many of us are desperate for things to change but trying to change things from within hasn't worked so what else do we have left.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/06/2021 12:40

Labour is apparently willingly giving the Tories this stick to beat them with. Why wouldn’t the Tories use it?

Quite.

andyoldlabour · 10/06/2021 12:41

Ereshkigalangcleg

"I think the pressure will be huge to sanction Rosie Duffield. I don't trust him not to."

He would have to be an absolute idiot to do so. Rosie actually increased her majority at the last election by 3%. Bearing in mind that she is the first ever Labour MP in Canterbury.
If as one poster suggested, KS is reading the room, then I would suggest it is a very small room and the lights are off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/06/2021 12:43

They will demand this as proof of his commitment to the cause. Every social media post they make is filled with comments from misogynists demanding her sacking.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/06/2021 12:50

I see KS has removed the splinters the size of dinosaur bones out of his arse.

I think his personality is really summed up by Shakespeare - lily livered and lacking in gall!

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 10/06/2021 12:54

Labour even told us to leave and called us transphobes when we just wanted to talk and open discussion.

This is the point that posters on here are forgetting. There are people within labour who have told us they don't welcome our views, activism or votes.

If not voting labour means more years of conservative government, the labour party are responsible, not the people told that they are not welcome.

RedToothBrush · 10/06/2021 12:54

Reading a few things about zeitgeist and where we are currently at. The zeitgeist is that we are now at a practical phase era where we are reconstructing things and the mood is for 'doing things' and 'getting things done' and not talking about ideology and theory.

Labour fall off the cliff in this respect, and being out of government and physically unable to be 'doing things' also hurts them.

Ironically this also applies to things like the green movement and international diplomacy with the US back in the fold. The G7 conference has a mood about it when there will be more progress than usual for conferences of this type in getting agreements, in part because we have had a 'wasted year'.

The 'wasted year' mentality is the one to watch in politics. If Johnson can use it to gather momentum generally it will leave Labour standing in the dust.

(Also note areas in the UK where Labour has been seen to be 'doing things' and doing them well - Wales and Greater Manchester for example, the Labour vote has held up significantly better).

This neatly

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/06/2021 13:03

Mumsnet is left leaning. What about getting behind the Social Democratic Party? sdp.org.uk/

highame · 10/06/2021 13:08

In light of the Maya case, one hopes Sir Kier will ensure Rosie isn't harassed anymore.

Beamur · 10/06/2021 13:19

That's a really good point. Interesting to see how Labour deals with the fact that it has been laid out do clearly in court that Rosie Duffield (and the many like her) are legally protected in their views.

SmokedDuck · 10/06/2021 13:21

There is always some truth to the idea that if you want to really see change within a party, you have to become a member to affect that. But it doesn't mean becoming a member will affect that - it may but there are a lot of factors involved.

I don't really think that the idea that Tories inherently hate women holds much water. Many of their policies over the last decades haven't been great for women, but there are a lot of women who are Tories, lots of the best people on trans issues now are Tory women - and not just by chance, but in terms of people who seem to really understand the issues and are willing to fight for them. And while they may not claim as many women members as Labour they have not hesitated to give them real leadership and power in a way that Labour, for some reason, struggles to do.

But it's an interesting question at the moment which party might be more amenable to being changed. Tories generally seem to be more pragmatic. But the real differences between the two parties and the two positions are more ephemeral than many realise.

Traditionally leftism like that found in the UK, or my country, has a lot in common with traditional conservatism - they are much more like each other than either are like the kind of neoliberalist globalism found in the modern LP or CP. Both of those older viewpoints tend to be much more localist, more amenable to economic intervention, very much about creating social institutions which produce a functional, stable society. Both are suspicious of Big Business. Particularly in the UK there is a political tradition that really bridges both POV, the kind of approach characterised by small businesses and rural institutes, cooperative ventures, credit unions, and grass-roots organisation.

At this moment in time across much of the English-speaking world, there is a small but increasing interest in this approach among conservative parties rather than left-wing parties. You can see it in the way they have increasingly become interested in and captures the working class and rural votes, in the way they have begun to question international globalism. It's not a done deal by any means, there is still a significant group stumping for international globalism and they may win out.

But I think it would be possible right now to make a lot more headway shifting them than the modern left. Especially if instead of talking about big-state leftism there was more interest taken in small-state leftism which has in the last 50years largely fallen by the wayside - many Tory parties are pretty ripe for that kind of thinking. And they generally already think that gender ideology is dumb.

TrainedByCats · 10/06/2021 13:35

@thecatfromjapan

Honestly, I cannot stress this enough: now, now, now is the moment to join Labour.

Starmer is probably the least TWAW Leader we are likely to get.

I really do worry about the next Leader.

You’ve made me think but not about joining Labour as they clearly said they don’t even want me to vote for them anymore. Similarly LibDem.

So maybe now is the time to join the conservatives Shock as you said we don’t need to agree with all their policies and maybe this is the best way to get domestic violence, child safeguarding etc on someone’s agenda.

nonsenceagain · 10/06/2021 13:51

Also left Labour over this. I understand why some want to stay in and fight, but for me leaving is the best way I can influence policy. I tried to make my case in the Party but got nowhere. Money and volunteer hours mean more to the Party than a few women arguing the GC case in CLPs.

Tanith · 10/06/2021 14:10

“ The Tories didn't actually do anything for a long time they just stood still. Whilst this whole debacle was igniting they just did nothing which ironically made them a safer space. Then Lizz Truss stuck her neck out and said 'actually things are ok just as they are. Again - doing nothing.”

That’s not true, though.

Maria Millar, as Equality minister, announced the reform of the GRA. The Conservatives then launched fully into TWAW: Theresa May even appeared at the Pink News awards. Look up Penny Mordaunt’s MN webchat to see how disastrously they were pushing this agenda.

It was women like Paula Lamont, Anne Rizylo, Kiri Tunks who first sounded the alarm; Olivia Palmer from the Greens.
Andy Healey, from the Greens, was also one of the first to bring it to wider attention.
Surely you haven’t forgotten about these people?

It’s good that Conservative Women (and men!) are now speaking up. How long will they be allowed to do so? Don’t forget: no-one has yet asked Boris Johnson for his stance.

By the way - why are we allowing a known liar to wriggle off the hook? It’s only been shown on Pink News. Personally, I think they’ve been hanging on to it until the best time to release it and I think Benjamin Cohen went with it too early.
It was meant to distract from something else, not his radio interview.

FOJN · 10/06/2021 14:23

I think they’ve been hanging on to it until the best time to release it and I think Benjamin Cohen went with it too early.

Pink News launched their Pride For All campaign yesterday I believe so I would imagine it was released as planned. It was almost certainly recorded in advance and KS could not have predicted the developments with SW. I have no doubt he would have preferred it not to be released at all, an assumption supported by the fact it wasn't posted on any official Labour twitter feed but he wouldn't have been able to stop its release without an even bigger fuss.

SmokedDuck · 10/06/2021 14:23

It's true the Conservatives were initially involved, and there are still some MPs who would like to go in that direction.

But I don't think it's at all accurate to say that they are now in the same or even in a similar place to Labour. They've clearly backed away from the policy changes they were suggesting. There is no visible support from the leadership and some very high level ministers have made it clear that they do not support it. MPs will openly tell their constituents that they do not support the changes and respond to their concerns.

The response to Liz Truss hasn't been in anything like the response to MPs in the LP who have even urged caution.

Of course they could change track but right now they are not in the same place.

UppityPuppity · 10/06/2021 14:35

I voted for you in the leadership election...Now I’m sending Liz Truss thank you letters.

A very good summation.

The odd thing is that they are not making as much of a culture war about it as they could do.

I agree - the Tories could exploit this much more with the batshittery of all of this. I don’t think in the main the Tories particularly care - I think we are just very lucky to have the independent minded likes of LT, KB, Bn N and JDP - who aren’t falling for it.

The fact that KS made the video the day before MF’s judgement announcement means that KS is completely brainless, isn’t told about such matters, or both.

ChristinaXYZ · 10/06/2021 14:46

@steakandcheeseplease

Yes I agree *@BlackForestCake*.

Why would they need to score points when Labour were/are doing amazing at scoring their own goals. I was shouting at the TV at one point when Lisa Nandy was spewing her anti woman hate. I was Labour born and bred but these people have destroyed the Labour Party and what it actually meant for a hell of a lot of people.

Labour even told us to leave and called us transphobes when we just wanted to talk and open discussion.

You can't try and insinuate the Tories started this war culture because its the actual Labour MPs fucking this all up. Just look at Dawn Butler Shock They literally can't shut their mouth and do nothing.

The Tories didn't actually do anything for a long time they just stood still. Whilst this whole debacle was igniting they just did nothing which ironically made them a safer space. Then Lizz Truss stuck her neck out and said 'actually things are ok just as they are. Again - doing nothing. B

So they haven't actually done anything but must be laughing their tits off and some Labour MPs and now their Leader are still talking shite! You couldn't make it up.

And no I don't believe there was some secret tory target group with a conspiracy to create a 'culture war'. Thats just an excuse for a certain set of people unwilling to accept they have fucked up.

They have done a few things: Liz Truss reaffirmed women's rights to single sex spaces; the new education advice last autumn warned schools off a lot of the Mermaid stuff and the born in the 'wrong body' concept was banned. Then they announced that public buildings had to be built with single sex toilets.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/15/exclusive-return-ladies-gents-lavatories-ministers-tell-architects/

"Robert Jenrick, the Communities secretary, is to amend building regulations and planning guidance to ensure separate 'ladies' and 'gents' facilities are installed in new buildings or those being developed, the Telegraph can disclose.

Buildings which already had unisex lavatories, which are shared by men and women, also face having to install partitions to ensure the privacy of the occupants is “fully respected”, sources said."

They don't want a full on culture war I think. So there are no big statements but they do keep chipping away at the problems. You can't say they are doing nothing. Not enough by any means in my view but slowly in the right direction is far better than screeching very fast in the wrong direction (Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and Greens) whilst throwing your own women MPs under the bus (Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry).

Even with the above I get many people think supporting the Tories is a step too far. Maybe look at the SDP?

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AnyFucker · 10/06/2021 14:46

Why the fuck is that vacant fool stood in what looks like the fields behind my house spouting bollocks like this ?

The world has gone mad

ChristinaXYZ · 10/06/2021 15:07

And if anyone really needs any more proof of what the Labour/Left in this country really thinks about women then look at the response of the TUC to the Maya judgement:

twitter.com/The_TUC/status/1402949928075378688

Nothing about how great it is that women are free to express their beliefs at work with the full protection of the law in terms of keeping their jobs (you know - stuff a union should care about) just the implied criticism that all we want to do is rush out and bully our trans colleagues because we must all be horrible bigots. Maya has never bullied anyone and no-one is arguing for the right to do it. Some backing TUC - thanks for nothing.

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Beamur · 10/06/2021 15:17

TUC are getting rightfully slammed for that pathetic tweet