If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

[RedthroatedCaracara]

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

@timeisnotaline

I don’t see that example as particularly problematic: trans men are biologically female and as such need the same protections and provisions as women, but often choose not to access services where they would have to acknowledge their female body. This seems completely reasonable for eg smear tests (although they should say women and people with cervixes so all the women who aren’t anatomy experts or native speakers still get checked rather than excluded) to be inclusive , but .. breast feeding. Doesn’t this mean they have confronted the reality of their ovaries, and grown a baby in their uterus, given birth more likely than not through their vagina, with a midwife possibly on a maternity ward, all this is very much a big acknowledgment of the very physical reality of being female. I don’t get stopping there and saying no I don’t have breasts nor am I a mother, I’m chest feeding. Are we saying most such babies are unplanned, not that they have embraced the benefits of being a woman from conception to birth but decided to stop there? Genuinely a bit baffled at the reasoning here.

If I recall correctly, the transman who tried and failed to be recorded as the father on the baby's birth certificate (Freddy McConnell) went through IVF shortly after getting a Gender Recognition Certificate.

The baby was not unplanned and I am not sure how Freddy's actions were consistent with the requirement to 'live as a man'.

I just checked my workplace maternity policy and there is no mention of the words ‘woman’ or ‘mother’ anywhere. It is still called maternity leave because of the law, but now to score higher on the Stonewall Index, it only refers to ‘birth parent’ or ‘primary adoptive parent’.

This is so offensive to those who have gone through so much to become mothers - or fathers (‘non-birth parent’).

It beggars belief that intelligent individuals could be persuaded that these words are so offensive that they need to be removed from official documents. It is also very naive to think that gender ideologues want to stop there

I understand the concerns but if we look at historical trends the likelihood of a few poorly thinking trans rights lobbyists bringing this to bear are low risk

But that’s just it- it’s not “a few poorly thinking trans rights lobbyists”. These changes are being driven by one of the most influential, well-funded charities in the UK. There is not one person in the UK who doesn’t have dealings with at least one institution or company that is linked to Stonewall. And they are bringing this to bear. It is happening.

Language does matter. Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, GIRES, Action on Trans Health and so on have all worked hard on trying to get the public - and more importantly, government, councils, schools, charities, big businesses and the NHS - to accept that transwomen are women, transmen are men (oddly, always in that order ).

You can only accept that slogan if you are prepared to accept that biology doesn't matter as much as gender identity. (I've never seen a clear definition of gender identity that doesn't involve gender stereotypes. When I was growing up we were trying to overcome stereotyping, now we're back to saying it's innate. So much for progress.)

If you do accept it, though, what you are accepting is that there's a group called women, which can be subdivided into transwomen and ciswomen. Because TWAW, and because there must be no gatekeeping, just immediate and total acceptance of anyone who says they're trans, you also have to accept all of the following.

• Male offenders, including sex offenders, who tell the police/prison service they identify as women will have their crimes recorded as committed by females.
• Same group may end up housed in women's prisons.
• Girl Guiding won't tell parents that their girls may be sharing accommodation with a transgirl or that the Leader is a transwoman.
• Transwomen are entitled to compete against women and girls in sport, even though hormone therapy and even sexual reassignment surgery (which most TW don't have) will leave the TW with most of the advantages of the male physique.

None of these things would be happening without the initial push to get transwomen accepted as a subset of 'woman' instead of 'man'.

@AngeloMysterioso

But that’s my point. I don’t know any organisations or people who have changed the language they use. I read about it, but I don’t experience it. So how prevalent is it really?

Well, between having my son and becoming pregnant again, my local Trust has apparently taken the time to remove the word mother from every page of the maternity section on its website. It now refers to “pregnant people”.

I was also banned from my local Maternity Voices Facebook page for objecting to their use of “pregnant people”.

I've just had a look at the maternity pages of the website of the Trust I work for. Plenty of references to women, and the words maternity, maternal and mother appear. Dad also appears in a small section about support for dads, and in that section reference is made to "your baby's mother". No mention of pregnant people anywhere. The words woman, women and mother definitely haven't been got rid of here.

@AngeloMysterioso

I understand the concerns but if we look at historical trends the likelihood of a few poorly thinking trans rights lobbyists bringing this to bear are low risk

But that’s just it- it’s not “a few poorly thinking trans rights lobbyists”. These changes are being driven by one of the most influential, well-funded charities in the UK. There is not one person in the UK who doesn’t have dealings with at least one institution or company that is linked to Stonewall. And they are bringing this to bear. It is happening.

Where is it happening?

Where is it happening?

Where there hasn't been pushback.

YABU for posting it here. I avoid the feminist section for a reason 🙄

I just checked my workplace maternity policy and there is no mention of the words ‘woman’ or ‘mother’ anywhere. It is still called maternity leave because of the law, but now to score higher on the Stonewall Index, it only refers to ‘birth parent’ or ‘primary adoptive parent’.

Thinking about it out loud here, but surely that's a good thing and more inclusive towards gay and lesbian parents too?
Not just trans people.

Well why not just avoid this thread then Moly

The title made it clear it’s a feminist discussion

I'm a mother but my kids are adopted so I'm not a parent who has given birth.
What does stonewall want me to be called

I avoid the feminist section for a reason

Yeah, I did think that on first reading the title.
"If you avoid the feminist section here's a feminist section article for you"
Um... as in I know you avoid it but I'll stick it in your face anyway lol
Kind of feels like those preachers on street squares shouting about God or whatever and trying to shove a leaflet in your hand as you pass - this must be the online version

Lesbians are still mothers and gay men are still fathers

How does taking out the use of mother and father make it more inclusive lesbians and gay men

YABU for posting it here. I avoid the feminist section for a reason

There is an option to hide the thread or scroll on. I don't respond on the threads that don't interest me. It's quite easy not to do so. ☺️

@MolyHolyGuacamole

YABU for posting it here. I avoid the feminist section for a reason 🙄

Gosh yes, it’s so inconvenient the way you MUST read every single post made in topics that you haven’t decided to formally ignore. Mumsnet should really make reading any post optional for users, it’s just too totalitarian otherwise isn’t it?

@EdgeOfACoin

Where is it happening?

Where there hasn't been pushback.

Any examples?

@OhWhyNot

Well why not just avoid this thread then Moly

The title made it clear it’s a feminist discussion

I've reported it asking for it to be moved to the right place.

Imagine you're struggling TTC and block the related boards, only to have someone posting in AIBU and other non-related chats with 'if you don't read the pregnancy board, just want to let you know IM PREGNANT!!!'

Stick to your echo chamber

Spectacularly missing the point Pumper - there should NEVER have been any need for Johann Lamont to put down that amendment.

Her words: "If members do not agree that women survivors of violence and rape should be able to ask for a women's examiner then say so and we will have that debate."

Perhaps you would like to peruse twitter for the nasty reactions against this amendment some from MSP's and the cries of transphobia used about it.

The words women, mother and pregnant women have distinct meanings failing to use them as the default or not using them as the first words in any discourse relating to female biology and biological and reproductive functions purely to assuage feelings of those who dislike them or to gain points on a Diversity Index is ludicrous and dangerous nonsense.

For those who say I'll always be a mum whatever anyone else says so I don't mind, why is this not the approach taken by those who wish to call themselves a birthing parent?

Yeah, I did think that on first reading the title.
"If you avoid the feminist section here's a feminist section article for you"

Women's rights are not simply a feminist issue. And on a site where an overwhelming percentage are women, it is appropriate to post issues about women in other sections.

@RedDogsBeg

Spectacularly missing the point Pumper - there should NEVER have been any need for Johann Lamont to put down that amendment.

Her words: "If members do not agree that women survivors of violence and rape should be able to ask for a women's examiner then say so and we will have that debate."

Perhaps you would like to peruse twitter for the nasty reactions against this amendment some from MSP's and the cries of transphobia used about it.

The words women, mother and pregnant women have distinct meanings failing to use them as the default or not using them as the first words in any discourse relating to female biology and biological and reproductive functions purely to assuage feelings of those who dislike them or to gain points on a Diversity Index is ludicrous and dangerous nonsense.

For those who say I'll always be a mum whatever anyone else says so I don't mind, why is this not the approach taken by those who wish to call themselves a birthing parent?

What point am I missing? Would you have preferred if there was no amendment? I’m guessing not. So it’s fine to say ‘we shouldn’t have to enshrine this in law’ but sometimes we do. That’s the end of the story, as far as I can see.

What a ridiculous comparison

There are many threads in AIBU about the trans debate and feminist issues

@OhWhyNot

Lesbians are still mothers and gay men are still fathers

How does taking out the use of mother and father make it more inclusive lesbians and gay men

Yes, I know but I was thinking more along the lines of if a woman gives birth for a gay couple, she won't necessarily want to be referred to as mum, maybe birth parent? For example (Obviously aware that this won't be the case for all women who do!) Just I don't see how being inclusive and mindful of others takes anything away from me - I'll still be mum. Unless you think doctors and nurses would just ignore me and say hand my baby over and say "there you go, birthing parent?"

In real life women who give birth will still be mothers. Their children will still call them mum.

In private life yes @CounsellorTroi of course that’s still going to be the case.

But this is about the public recognition of something very specific to women being erased in the name of “inclusivity.” It’s the writing out of women from public life and law which angers me.

Women have barely had the recognition of our bodies in a world organised around male bodies and masculine life patterns.

Now - under the guise of being inclusive - women are being deliberately excluded again.

What does it matter if the small number of people giving birth want to be called that and not mothers? You will still be called mothers. I do not see the big deal.

For heaven’s sake for every other thread on AIBU there is a dedicated topic where it could have gone.

The crappy DH threads could go in Relationships.

The difficult teen threads could go in Teenagers.

The many, many covid/vaccine threads could go in Coronavirus.

I don’t frequent any of those boards but that doesn’t mean I moan when threads about those things are posted in AIBU.