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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

733 replies

RedthroatedCaracara · 06/06/2021 11:20

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

OP posts:
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Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 14:03

@Datun

But that’s not happening. And you can’t provide any evidence that it’s happening, aside from a few tweets. And anywhere it’s not happening you say ‘well, that’s because we already fixed that one’.

Except where it happened at the highest lawmaking office in the land.

You've had a woman on this very thread saying her work policy reflects it.

The government has had to come out and insist gender neutral toilets are rolled back.

And women are being decoupled from their sex to the extent that men can be lesbians.

A doctor on here said that if a transman came to them with abdominal pain, it was a criminal offence for her to write in the referral letter that the person might be pregnant. Because of privacy laws denying biology.

More anecdata then, but no translation into real life. And I’m not sure how many times I can ask if the bill excludes the word ‘mother’ or not.
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 14:04

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Never mind there’s no actual real-life evidence of every midwife being shot at dawn for saying the word ‘mother’.

This is what is known as a "straw man".

Just a wee joke, although to be fair, I made it back when I thought you had more evidence.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 14:12

Just a wee joke

No, just rather silly hyperbole.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 14:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Just a wee joke

No, just rather silly hyperbole.

If you like. But no more silly than Sarah Vine’s article.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 14:17

More anecdata then, but no translation into real life. And I’m not sure how many times I can ask if the bill excludes the word ‘mother’ or not.

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be pointed out to you that if it weren't for some sense being spoken in the House of Lords and awareness raising by feminists, like those on FWR, it would have done so.

I can see from going back over the early part of the thread just how many people have picked up on your disingenuousness, and quite reasonably can't be arsed engaging.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 14:26

People saying 'well it hasn't happened in my experience' is anecdata.

And just to repeat this, all you have is your own anecdata. People have made relevant points and provided examples of female erasure. You have a few cherrypicked screenshots of one use of the word "mother", some silly straw men, and you completely ignored the question about how the Scottish government defines "female" and that some organisations think it includes MTF trans people. You don't want to investigate this issue properly yourself because you don't care enough about it, you want other people to run around getting and posting links so you can dismiss them as not quite good enough for you, for whatever reason you have.

No thanks. Go well.

OldTurtleNewShell · 07/06/2021 14:30

One of the most frustrating things about this 'debate' and the reason it is so hard to get anywhere, is the number of people who will swear blind 'that never happens' even in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it is happening.
And why? For no other reason than they refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit their stance. If they don't want it to be true, then it can't be.
It's quite extraordinary and really depressing.
Even worse, we can't make any progress on finding a way forward - for trans people or for women - while half of the debate consists of activists standing with their fingers in their metaphorical ears and singing 'lalalala - can't hear you'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 14:30

People I know (men mostly) who wouldn't even have known anything about this stuff 12 months ago are all talking about it.

YY. I was on holiday last week and it was brought up out of the blue by my DP's mum (not knowing what I think about it), who wasn't particularly aware of what was going on but had definitely picked up on some of the more extreme activism.

Datun · 07/06/2021 14:32

Here is people with a cervix. Twenty minutes ago yet another thread popped up.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4264560-anyone-with-a-cervix?msgid=107998270

Stick around plumper. This is a very regular occurrence.

The word woman must be decoupled from her biology.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 14:40

@Datun

Here is people with a cervix. Twenty minutes ago yet another thread popped up.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4264560-anyone-with-a-cervix?msgid=107998270

Stick around plumper. This is a very regular occurrence.

The word woman must be decoupled from her biology.

Thanks Dlatun. I’ll add ‘the people who tweet for guernsey’ to my list.
Datun · 07/06/2021 14:43

There's also gender replacing sex on school forms, right on the front page of FWR. And someone from the BMJ having to explain why biological sex is not trumped by gender identity in a medical setting.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 07/06/2021 14:44

I’m disagreeing with how successful they are.
Honestly, I can't be bothered to read every post between there and here, but language is being changed.

I tried to explain all of this to an elderly friend and I had to be so careful to specify exactly what I meant by 'woman' but to clarify to her what she might find included under that word.

I racked up my first deletion for using the 'wrong' pronoun of an unidentifiable transperson. I object strongly to being called a 'cis woman' but that, apparently, is completely acceptable.

MarshaBradyo · 07/06/2021 14:47

I don’t do Twitter so what’s on there doesn’t cross my path.

But when the HoL spend hours with speech after speech, really good ones at that, on the word, then it’s worth talking about more.

Ditto when one the world’s biggest consumer facing companies write marketing copy to women but use body parts to describe us instead, worth looking at how we got to that place and what can be done to reverse it.

MarshaBradyo · 07/06/2021 14:48

Plus no one has to take interest although it’s clear many do given recent Stonewall situation. Although those least interested seem to be spending longest on talking about how it isn’t happening.

MarshaBradyo · 07/06/2021 14:50

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I’m disagreeing with how successful they are. Honestly, I can't be bothered to read every post between there and here, but language is being changed.

I tried to explain all of this to an elderly friend and I had to be so careful to specify exactly what I meant by 'woman' but to clarify to her what she might find included under that word.

I racked up my first deletion for using the 'wrong' pronoun of an unidentifiable transperson. I object strongly to being called a 'cis woman' but that, apparently, is completely acceptable.

Yes new work application with it creeping in ‘cis’ which I find offensive and hope gets dropped along with those forcing it through.
Datun · 07/06/2021 15:38

There are loads.

Remove the word woman from cervical cancer charity in Ireland.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-defends-removing-references-to-women-in-online-cervical-cancer-information-1.4357438%3Fmode%3Damp

Researchers say smear tests shouldn't refer to women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4248200-Smear-tests-should-not-refer-to-women-says-study

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 16:12

[quote Datun]There are loads.

Remove the word woman from cervical cancer charity in Ireland.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-defends-removing-references-to-women-in-online-cervical-cancer-information-1.4357438%3Fmode%3Damp

Researchers say smear tests shouldn't refer to women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4248200-Smear-tests-should-not-refer-to-women-says-study[/quote]
The NHS website says women. Wikipedia says women. Cancer Research UK says women. The National Cervical Cancer Coalition says women. Public Health England says women.

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 16:12

[quote Datun]There are loads.

Remove the word woman from cervical cancer charity in Ireland.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-defends-removing-references-to-women-in-online-cervical-cancer-information-1.4357438%3Fmode%3Damp

Researchers say smear tests shouldn't refer to women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4248200-Smear-tests-should-not-refer-to-women-says-study[/quote]
Further evidence attached.

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
Datun · 07/06/2021 16:21

Yes plumper. I'm sure you can find more places where the word woman is used than not. But that's not the point. A point you seem to want to avoid.

The point is an agenda to decouple the concept of women from their biology.

Recommending the word woman and mother is removed, is just part of it. The fact that you can find places where it isn't, is so irrelevant, I'm having trouble understanding why you're doing it.

How else do you think convicted rapists, complete with penis, get put in women's prisons?

Woman, in that context means violent, sex offending male, convicted of rape.

That's how far the agenda extends.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 16:25

@Datun

Yes plumper. I'm sure you can find more places where the word woman is used than not. But that's not the point. A point you seem to want to avoid.

The point is an agenda to decouple the concept of women from their biology.

Recommending the word woman and mother is removed, is just part of it. The fact that you can find places where it isn't, is so irrelevant, I'm having trouble understanding why you're doing it.

How else do you think convicted rapists, complete with penis, get put in women's prisons?

Woman, in that context means violent, sex offending male, convicted of rape.

That's how far the agenda extends.

If that’s the agenda it’s not very successful considering the NHS, Wikipedia, the government, cancer research and the NCCC are all using women. And the people who are not are the people who tweet for guernsey, an Irish charity and someone referenced in the telegraph.

I absolutely agree that transwomen shouldn’t be in female prisons. The two aren’t connected because nobody of any note is refusing to use the word ‘woman’.

GCAcademic · 07/06/2021 16:25

More anecdata then, but no translation into real life. And I’m not sure how many times I can ask if the bill excludes the word ‘mother’ or not.

How are you defining "real life"? Because my workplace is my real life, and the erasure of women, mothers, maternity, is complete across all HR documentation.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 16:26

@GCAcademic

More anecdata then, but no translation into real life. And I’m not sure how many times I can ask if the bill excludes the word ‘mother’ or not.

How are you defining "real life"? Because my workplace is my real life, and the erasure of women, mothers, maternity, is complete across all HR documentation.

What does it use in place of women/mothers/maternity? Can you post a copy of it?
GCAcademic · 07/06/2021 16:31

No, of course, I'm not going to out myself by posting documents from my workplace!

In any case, i doubt that any evidence will satisfy you. What a pointless, bad faith discussion.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 16:35

@GCAcademic

No, of course, I'm not going to out myself by posting documents from my workplace!

In any case, i doubt that any evidence will satisfy you. What a pointless, bad faith discussion.

No, I thought you probably wouldn’t. I’d love to see some evidence though.
Datun · 07/06/2021 16:53

I absolutely agree that transwomen shouldn’t be in female prisons. The two aren’t connected because nobody of any note is refusing to use the word ‘woman’.

You don't see the connection between woman meaning violent male sex offender when it can mean putting males in women's prisons, and a charity that replaces woman with cervix haver so it's not a necessary criterion for males who identify as women?

It's exactly the same agenda.

Putting males in female prisons is the extreme end of the spectrum that starts with redefining the word woman.

The only reason it doesn't feel like that, is because it's far rarer. It doesn't make it not the extreme end.

Anyway, I think I've explained this sufficiently, for anyone else reading this thread.

What's happened is that mainstream media is reporting on a move that would affect every single person, almost immediately. Unlike prisons.

That was stonewalls mistake.

Going after the word mother.

Woman was clearly being replaced all over the shop. People are far more emotionally invested in the word mother. (And, by extension, father).

It immediately affects everyone. You don't have to be put in prison, or a rape refuge, or play sport.

Hence the outrage.

And yes, this is very much something that is being pushed. Look at the Freddie McConnell case, going all the way to the Supreme Court. A legal, fully funded case, with one of the most expensive London lawfirms, that wants to eliminate the entire concept of mother and have it replaced with the gender identity of father.

The case is still ongoing, I believe. But Freddie wants to, quite literally, make the word father mean human who gives birth.

Legally. Set in stone.

Minimising it doesn't work, I'm afraid.

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