Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

[ChristinaXYZ]

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

I also get the sense of a "clique" of friends who are at the centre of Scottish public life... looking at the tone of some of the tweets. So, so unprofessional.

@ArabellaScott

I think what has happened is that for a few years, the SNP has managed to present itself (and Scotland) as a progressive, tolerant, forward thinking country.

The truth is that underneath, on the ground, not all that much has really changed, though. There have always been nationalist elements that are small minded and anti-English, just as there have always been welcoming and open minded people in Scotland.

I think this is largely about spin and public perception.

It worked for a while.

Cracks are showing.

I think they see this as progressive though, and they are not the only government to fall for the thinking of Stonewall. I mean, obviously you'd hope for more critical thinking from a government but that seems to be too much to hope for these days.

There are a fair number of people with reportedly related predilections within the coterie though, aren’t there?

Bit confused by some people saying that Marion was charged under the new hate crime bill? This has not yet passed into law, as far as I'm aware. Marion was charged under the Malicious Communications Act, if the press can be believed. Am I wrong in my belief that this is also a law applicable in England and Wales? Is there a vital difference between the Malicious Communications Act in Scotland and the same Act in England and Wales? Genuine question!

FeistySheep It looks like the Malicious Communications Act was passed in 1988 (pre devolution) so I am assuming that the Act applies to the whole of the UK (or at least Scotland, England and Wales).

nettle434 & feistysheep

I believe that the Malicious Communications Act 1988 explicitly does not apply to Scotland, "(3)This Act does not extend to Scotland or, except for section 2, to Northern Ireland."

The Communications Act 2003 has been reported by the Guardian as the act they understand she was interviewed under.

If I was told twenty years ago a woman would be charged under this act for stating she thought men were men and women were women I would laughed.

I still cannot believe this. It’s not even hit the press!

And to answer the wider question, I believe that act does extend to England and Wales.

My personal concern is that use of it north of the border in terms of arrests, of not convictions, would even now influenced in practice by the forthcoming hate crime legislation and general political discussion and the same.

@WellRightOKThen

nettle434 & feistysheep

I believe that the Malicious Communications Act 1988 explicitly does not apply to Scotland, "(3)This Act does not extend to Scotland or, except for section 2, to Northern Ireland."

The Communications Act 2003 has been reported by the Guardian as the act they understand she was interviewed under.

Thanks *WellRightOKThen. Thanks. In that case, I think it's the same legislation they used to prosecute Kate Scottow. I don't know enough to be able to say whether the same clauses have been used but yes, I don't see much difference between West Yorkshire Police and Police Scotland. Both forces seem to have lost the Peelian principle of policing by consent.

@OhHolyJesus

I've signed a no flight pledge so intend to holiday in the U.K. for the foreseeable but Scotland wouldn't be on my list, despite me wanting to see how beautiful it is.

I'd be arrested for my t shirts alone I would imagine.

Blimey, you were right.

From Twitter tonight.

Tweet 1: Reports @policescotland were used tonight as personal arm of TRA bar staff @DoctorsBar who reported women for the heinous crime of paying for drinks and consuming them quietly while in possession of wrong opinions as expressed on T shirts.

5 officers were, apparently, needed.

Tweet 2: For those asking, I believe the t shirt said #womenwontwheesht and the main objection was to Marion's presence.

Member of staff tried to invent excuse to exclude her as she arrived and thereafter staff were hostile & aggressive.

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1429205441054117893?s=19

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1429205441054117893?s=19

I'm truly shocked that a flippant comment a couple of months ago has been borne out like this.

Bloody hell I just popped over to Twitter

FFS !

It's truly , isn't it?

A couple months back, ItsLateHumpty said:

I’ve a newly favourite t-shirt which states “I am a woman. Get over it” and has been deemed a TERF ‘dog whistle’ by some (odd) people. It’s in support of Hibo fighting against FGM.

In Scotland this t-shirt could be considered a hate crime.

So, if I have to seriously consider my wardrobe for “hate speech” before I visit a country then yep, I’ll consider my options. If you consider women’s rights or being opposed to FGM ‘hate speech’, you’re in a very rarefied bubble.

From what I'm seeing on twitter tonight, that Anti-FGM t-shirt would also get a visit from the police.

Update: this was one of the t-shirts worn.

thefamousartistbirdyrose.com/collections/clothing/products/nothankyou-t-shirt

I'm Scottish and holidayed in Scotland last week. Have never seen a bloke use a ladies loo and haven't seen any ribbons yet. Steer clear Glasgow and Edinburgh and you wouldn't know there was anything going on.

Scotland’s currently bursting at the seams with holiday makers, so please do stay away

That Twitter account’s timeline (not FWS, but the other one they’ve screenshotted) is disgusting, as most of those types of accounts are.

No, I don’t wish to visit Scotland at all atm.

I think this new development deserves its own thread. I'm just popping out but if there isn't one I'll start one a bit later.

And of course, a certain bar in Edinburgh will call the police to throw you out of you have thoughts they don’t like...

Culloden Academy (near Inverness) pupils got back to school last week to discover all the toilets had gone unisex as well - pupils from 11 to 18 of both sexes expected to share the same facilities. Pupil and parental uproar followed and the school has gone back to single sex facilities, although the way this statement is worded it seems it might be only temporary.

My own personal turning point was elected politicians voting against traumatised rape survivors being able to request a female (I.e. female sex) examiner.

I sympathise, Wait. That and the persecution of Marion Millar, and the general institutionalised misogyny.

It’s pretty bad down here in England. But we used to look on Scotland as a beacon of hope after the Tories got in here in 2010 (with their Libdem lapdogs), and half-seriously talk of moving to Scotland for a decent government. God, what a change since then.

Scotland is pretty misogynistic - always has been. Same old same old.

@KittenKong

And of course, a certain bar in Edinburgh will call the police to throw you out of you have thoughts they don’t like...

If I understood that thread correctly, a bar person called the police on some female customers because he didn’t like what was written on their t-shirts??

I have family in Scotland and have always been really uncomfortable with some of their anti-English sentiments. There’s often an undertone of “poor Scotland, victimised by England”, and the assumption that all English people are public school tossers like BJ…

No they called the police because they clocked Marion in a group - no t-shirts, banners or ‘bad topics’ being discussed. Waited until they had ordered food and drink then told them called the police - 5 police turned up.