Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

I'm saying that this is what I normally see on mumsnet.

Handsome neighbour / plumber: ohhhh ask him out, keep us posted, I am so invested, we're getting the hats ready.

Not handsome neighbour you don't fancy: a creep.

@Veronika13

It's only creepy if you don't fancy him.

If you were single and he was handsome - then that's an extract from a novel isn't it.

Well clearly sarcasm isn't everyone's friend

So not someone who randomly approaches or DMs you then?

@DinaofCloud9

Well Jedi succeeded in monopolizing the whole thread the tedious tool.

Have we met?

@Mumoblue

“Only creepy if you don’t fancy him”, wow I just rolled my eyes so hard I think I saw my brain. Even if that WERE the case (which it’s not), women are still allowed to decide their own boundaries and who they do and don’t want to interact with- even if that makes some men sad.

Agree 100%.

@Veronika13

I'm saying that this is what I normally see on mumsnet.

Handsome neighbour / plumber: ohhhh ask him out, keep us posted, I am so invested, we're getting the hats ready.

Not handsome neighbour you don't fancy: a creep.

So a man a woman wants to approach and is pondering how best to do it!

Not a man who just thinks it's fine, he can just go ahead!

You CAN be kind AND tell someone that their behaviour is making you uncomfortable/is unacceptable.
It's a statement that you can say without aggression or hostility.
It's boundaries.

I've told my DDs that if anyone tries to talk to them on way home from school even just asking directions the fact they're even asking children rather than an adult is in itself not right and they should not get into convo. Just say sorry and walk off etc

I've told them that if a man says or shouts anything rude to them that men like that do it to lots of women/ girls and it's not anything to do with them at all. Just ignore and tell me when they get home.

I hope that has set the frame right for when it happens.

In unrelated news, I was thinking of hoe this thread reminded me of Shirley valentine, but turbo boosted.

Shirley Valentine : I mean, most fellas ya know, they've got no idea how to talk to a woman.
Costas Caldes : No?
Shirley Valentine : No. They feel they have to take over the conversation. I mean, I mean with most fellas if you say something like, like my favorite season's autumn, they go oh, oh, my favorite season's spring and then you've got 10 minutes of them talkin' about why they like spring and you weren't talkin' about spring, you were talkin' about autumn. So what do you do? You talk about what they want to talk about. Or you don't talk at all. Or you wind up talking to yourself.

I feel like offended for you OP and really tired of it too. I’d just ignore him.

I actually think it's more creepy if they are good looking. Attractive men don't generally need to make 'cold' approaches.

@NiceGerbil

I've told them that if a man says or shouts anything rude to them that men like that do it to lots of women/ girls and it's not anything to do with them at all. Just ignore and tell me when they get home.

I hope that has set the frame right for when it happens.

I’ve been puzzling over how to have this conversation with dd. I think what you’ve said is just right. Thank you.

Hey no probs

It's shit having to have these conversations but it can be done age appropriately and without scaring them.

I also said it probably wouldn't happen (I hope but it was rife when I was growing up and it's the same area) but if it did it was the man's problem and men like that are just not very nice.

TBH when I was young I'd feel really embarrassed but never had the what did I do wrong/ it's my fault thing. I only knew about that being common on threads from here. So MN is really helpful

Yes I agree that sounds well worded. I think the feeling to blame bit is complex. For me a bit to do with things that have come up in this thread - social messages that ‘if you are in this public place you can expect to get approached’ type stuff - my fault for being there. And what you wore. As a teen exploring with your body, wanting to feel sexually attractive but lacking emotional maturity or skills to handle the responses. So my fault for what I wore. My mum minimising things - again no message that ‘this is a man problem’. And - I’m not sure where this came from exactly - but a strong feeling of you should speak up/fight back/not allow harassment to happen. And feeling weak for the times I did not.

Now I realise that there was wisdom, instincts to listen to, lots of the times that I didn’t challenge, and how was I supposed to learn to do that with no adults teaching me? All of these thoughts around for me currently so partly why I was so keen to challenge this guy. But I don’t think it was wise in this instance. And I will help my daughters know that ignore and avoid is sometimes the best response, it’s not weak, that each and every time there is a risk assessment. There shouldn’t be but there is.

I’d want to tell them too that it doesn’t happen often, gerbil, but it does doesn’t it, it will. They are a bit young for the conversation but I wonder how to equip them for this - possibly the main thing is about them being able to tell us so we can help them process and learn from incidents.

(2) I take the view that if you are on an app that allows strangers to send you personal messages then you are open to personal messages from strangers. Likewise if you're walking in the street you might find yourself approached by strangers.

Hang on.

Did you just say that if a woman walks down a street that means she is open to being approached by men?

If you are on an app that has a pm function, that means you are open to (aware of, accepting of, ok with) getting DMs

Likewise - which means in the same way, similarly. Comparing two things and saying they are the same.

Which leads us to the inevitable conclusion of that view...

app = ok with DM and walking down a street = ok with being approached by men.

Subtext being don't want DMs? Don't be on the app.

Don't want to be approached? Don't walk down the street.

The world is there for me to interact with as I choose (subject to the laws of the land, my own attempts not to be creepy and people's rights to block me or walk away from me)

@JediGnot This really stinks of male privilege... do you realise how you sound? The world is there "for you"? It's really not.

Discussions on the internet, eh? I am NOT saying that everyone has to agree with me. But equally I really don't think that I am so far apart from the typical female view on here as most of you think.

When I use the word approach I am saying "move towards in order to initiate communication" (apologies if my definition was unclear or unusual) - I am not saying "blatantly chat up" or that men have a right to a chat or a right to be treated with enthusiasm in return.

Do men have a responsibility to try to avoid making women feel uncomfortable and scared? Yes

Does this mean that men's right to approach women late at night on dark streets is all but zero? Yes

Does this mean that men should probably avoid approaching the vast majority of women in public the vast majority of the time? Yes

Should a middle aged or older man be extra specially careful to make sure it doesn't look like they're on the pull when approaching young women because they are even more likely to react in a "fuck, not another creepy fucking man yet again, I'm fucking sick of it, it's daily"? Of course.

Does this mean that a man who needs directions should try to wait for a man to ask directions from instead of approaching the first 15 year old girl he sees? Yes, unless there really is no-one else around.

Should a middle aged man be approaching a young woman on the street in the hope of it developing into a relationship / sexual encounter? No

Is the pubic realm a good place for any man to be looking to pick up women? No

Do I genuinely believe that were I to sit down with a woman on this thread and watch a load of videos of men approaching women in public that we would agree which were appropriate and which weren't? Yes - unless the woman concerned took the view that no man should ever approach a strange woman.

I just find the implication of this thread - that women have a right to spend time in public without ever having to deal with the male 50% of the public - simplistic, unrealistic and wrong.

VettiyaIruken

"Subtext being don't want DMs? Don't be on the app.

Don't want to be approached? Don't walk down the street."

I agree that more needs to be done to make streets and apps women friendly. Part of that is educating men not to make women feel unsafe or uncomfortable, which means - and I can only trust women on this - men approaching women much less and doing so in a much less threatening or annoying way when they do.

Do I think that people have a right to mouth off their opinions on apps and not get public replies? No. Is it reasonable that some of those replies are by DM not public? Yes. Should men ever make a woman feel unsafe? If she is a fascist or a racist then I don't see why not, but generally no, of course not.

Do I think that social animals of any sex have a legal or moral right to spend time around other social animals and never face interaction? No, I don't.

Do men have a responsibility not to harrass or annoy women? Yes

Does this mean a man has no right to ever approach a woman because he can never be 100% sure that he won't annoy or threaten? No.

Does this mean a man has no right to ever approach a woman because he can never be 100% sure that he won't annoy or threaten? No.

Men’s right to approach women.

What are men exerting their ‘right’ to approach women doing to ensure they are considering the woman as a person?

Do all women feel unsafe when approached in any way by a man? No
Do most women feel unsafe when approached in any way by a man? Don’t know.
Do any women feel unsafe when approached in any way by a man? Yes.

Do men know which women will feel unsafe when they approach them? No.

Which means men exerting their “right” to approach women are doing so knowing that they could be making a woman feel unsafe.

Men don't have a right to approach women.

A right is something you are entitled to. Something you are owed and something you can expect to enforce so no. Men do not have a right to approach women.

Shirley Valentine : No. They feel they have to take over the conversation. I mean, I mean with most fellas if you say something like, like my favorite season's autumn, they go oh, oh, my favorite season's spring and then you've got 10 minutes of them talkin' about why they like spring and you weren't talkin' about spring, you were talkin' about autumn. So what do you do? You talk about what they want to talk about. Or you don't talk at all. Or you wind up talking to yourself.

This really made me laugh vivariumvivariumsvivaria. Reminds me of my workplace

Does this mean a man has no right to ever approach a woman because he can never be 100% sure that he won't annoy or threaten
No.

So you’re OK approaching a women knowing she most likely does not want to interact with you at all?

I don't think that Jedi understands what a right is.

But, I won't raise it with him. I can see him out the corner of my eye trying to catch my attention, so, I'm trying very hard to look busy with my laptop and have my earphones on. I'm not playing any music, they are just on.

I'm also absolutely bursting for a pee but I daren't move because I'll have to go past him and I bet he'll try (again) to make conversation.

The upside of this is that I can thank Creepy-McCreepster-Men-Who-Think-They-Are-Nice-Guys for my fantastic pelvic floor. So, erm, thanks, Patriarchy.

Bunshaped underrated film, for sure.