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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Response to men’s creepiness

277 replies

Undersnatch · 24/05/2021 22:39

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability Hmm. It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

OP posts:
JediGnot · 25/05/2021 16:23

Also just seen he knows your face... don't mean to be a smart arse, but who uses their real photo or real date or birth or real address anywhere online apart from where 100% necessary?

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 16:24

And one last thing - sorry you are going through this - I do understand (at least partly) why you are uncomfortable and a little concerned. Good luck

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 16:27

@JediGnot have you sent private messages, unsolicited, to women on apps that are for neighbours to discuss neighbourhood issues? When you could have discussed the same thing in the general open chat of the app?

I have a very plain and simple Facebook profile, which is very locked down as I appreciate my privacy. It is clear that I am female and my profile picture is an actual picture of me although not a very exciting one. On a weekly or sometimes daily basis, depending on how frequently I post on public comments, I get unsolicited PMs from exclusively men. Occasionally abusive, usually just trying to engage me in (creepy) chat. I block and delete them all. Should I not use Facebook because it has the facility to allow unsolicited PMs?

MorriseysGladioli · 25/05/2021 16:32

The app notifies others when a new person joins, so I would think that an almost immediate private message is uncalled for.

It's not a terrible, threatening thing to do; it's just unwanted.

I'm avoiding a site I enjoy because of a man messaging me wanting to chat.
I expect I'll have to avoid it for good now, because his last couple of messages were to ask if we could chat whilst I'm at work, and when I said no, to ask me to message him as soon as I got home.
Who's got time for that kind of stuff?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/05/2021 16:49

I take the view that if you are on an app that allows strangers to send you personal messages then you are open to personal messages from strangers.

OK!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/05/2021 16:52

[Man here]. Please don't bite my head off. This post really does emphasize how insanely different men and women are, IMHO. I am stuck between 100% accepting a woman's perspective of what is creepy, and the following -

Oddly enough, I read your messages in reverse order (flipped thread) and had intuited that before reading it.

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 16:53

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@JediGnot have you sent private messages, unsolicited, to women on apps that are for neighbours to discuss neighbourhood issues? When you could have discussed the same thing in the general open chat of the app?

I have a very plain and simple Facebook profile, which is very locked down as I appreciate my privacy. It is clear that I am female and my profile picture is an actual picture of me although not a very exciting one. On a weekly or sometimes daily basis, depending on how frequently I post on public comments, I get unsolicited PMs from exclusively men. Occasionally abusive, usually just trying to engage me in (creepy) chat. I block and delete them all. Should I not use Facebook because it has the facility to allow unsolicited PMs? [/quote]
"have you sent private messages, unsolicited, to women on apps that are for neighbours to discuss neighbourhood issues?"

No. I am not on those sorts of apps.

"When you could have discussed the same thing in the general open chat of the app? "

Personally I am the sort of person who sends private messages to people on websites like facebook, perhaps to slate them for being racist, or to say that I agree with them when I don't want to post publicly that I agree. Given this is key functionality of the site I'd argue that you accept this or you stay off the site! [Though this does throw up the question of whether all social media is designed for men, not for women, given men are massively less affected by unsolicited messages].

"I have a very plain and simple Facebook profile, which is very locked down as I appreciate my privacy." I have two. One with my real name that I use to contact old friends - rarely post anything public. No photo. One with a fake name, fake dob, fake everything, no photo.

Last paragraph - You should block and report anyone who abuses you, obviously. What is "creepy chat?" To me it is asking about you clothes or body or making blatantly uninvited sexual advances... but to women it's (I think) pretty much any advance, as all advances could be done publicly, or they are too personal to have been made at all.

I am sure a lot of men are creepy. I am sure that women perceive all those men and more as creepy, and perception is obviously highly relevant.

CreepyFirstTimePoster · 25/05/2021 16:57

Someone has mail Smile

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 17:05

@JediGnot how many PMs on Facebook or similar do you get from total strangers, and what is the split between men and women who do this? Is your profile (whether real or faked) noticeably male or female on those sites?

Pretty much any private messages from male total strangers are creepy. It's almost never a reasonable comment based on something that I've said on a public thread that perhaps they didn't want to publicly state. It's usually the online equivalent of Joey Tribianni saying "how you doin?" It's entitled, egotistical, presumptive... the list goes on. Hence the insta-block and delete. Abusive PMs obviously get reported.

Facebook didn't have messenger when it first came about, and I've had my profile for a very long time. Why should I be chased off a useful tool for me just because I don't appreciate unsolicited PMs?

MargaritaPie · 25/05/2021 17:07

"Also just seen he knows your face... don't mean to be a smart arse, but who uses their real photo or real date or birth or real address anywhere online apart from where 100% necessary?"

If this is the app I'm thinking of, you don't get to choose an anonymous username like you can with most sites. Invitations are sent by post with a login code which identifies you as a resident of a specific address in the area.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/05/2021 17:09

but who uses their real photo or real date or birth or real address anywhere online apart from where 100% necessary on that specific App, everyone. That's the point of it.

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 17:09

@MargaritaPie

"Also just seen he knows your face... don't mean to be a smart arse, but who uses their real photo or real date or birth or real address anywhere online apart from where 100% necessary?"

If this is the app I'm thinking of, you don't get to choose an anonymous username like you can with most sites. Invitations are sent by post with a login code which identifies you as a resident of a specific address in the area.

That site would not be one I would use!
AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 17:13

It's not like it's a hardship or some absurd restriction to just to leave women (and men!) alone unless they've indicated they're happy with private chatting. I mean, I have literally never sent anyone a PM without checking first on public chat or where the person has made it clear they are happy for anyone to PM them on a particular topic. It's not difficult.

MorriseysGladioli · 25/05/2021 17:14

Regardless of that, there shouldn't be an assumption that it's ok to message women for no particular reason.

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 17:23

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@JediGnot how many PMs on Facebook or similar do you get from total strangers, and what is the split between men and women who do this? Is your profile (whether real or faked) noticeably male or female on those sites?

Pretty much any private messages from male total strangers are creepy. It's almost never a reasonable comment based on something that I've said on a public thread that perhaps they didn't want to publicly state. It's usually the online equivalent of Joey Tribianni saying "how you doin?" It's entitled, egotistical, presumptive... the list goes on. Hence the insta-block and delete. Abusive PMs obviously get reported.

Facebook didn't have messenger when it first came about, and I've had my profile for a very long time. Why should I be chased off a useful tool for me just because I don't appreciate unsolicited PMs?
[/quote]
My profiles are both clearly male (male names) and I get very few messages from total strangers, more from men I'm sure, and precisely zero ever from women being even 1% flirtatious! I doubt this surprises you.

"Why should I be chased off a useful tool for me just because I don't appreciate unsolicited PMs?" Point taken, but we do live in a capitalist world where the only power you have over disgusting organisations like facebook is to remove yourself when they fail to keep you safe.

"It's usually the online equivalent of Joey Tribianni saying "how you doin?" It's entitled, egotistical, presumptive... the list goes on." I am tempted to say that your problem is not with the PM it's with men full stop... your issue is the way men are, and one way that manifests itself is unwanted PMs.

Is this just another example of how men and women are completely and utterly different in so many ways? Is expecting men to change worth even one second of thinking time, unless accompanied by a COMPLETE overhaul of society to eliminate the patriarchy and misogyny?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/05/2021 17:29

Is expecting men to change worth even one second of thinking time, unless accompanied by a COMPLETE overhaul of society to eliminate the patriarchy and misogyny? If we don't first think it how can we ever achieve it?

Build it and they will come...

...and all that!

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 17:35

It is not "the way men are". The men in my life are not like this. You have a very dim view of your own sex, and pathetically low expectations. Yes, men can do better. Yes we should expect them to do so. Yes we should be completely overhauling society to eliminate patriarchy and misogyny. It will benefit men as well as women.

The difference between men and women is not as big as you make out and certainly not something that need persist.

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 17:40

@AssassinatedBeauty

It's not like it's a hardship or some absurd restriction to just to leave women (and men!) alone unless they've indicated they're happy with private chatting. I mean, I have literally never sent anyone a PM without checking first on public chat or where the person has made it clear they are happy for anyone to PM them on a particular topic. It's not difficult.
I can understand where you're coming from, but honestly, as a man I come from the exact opposite place. The world is there for me to interact with as I choose (subject to the laws of the land, my own attempts not to be creepy and people's rights to block me or walk away from me).

I am not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just stressing the total difference between my perception of men and women.

To a large extent my simple male brain finds it hard to know how to respond to what is clearly a pretty universal female take on this other than one extreme or another - never approach women under any circumstances or try to be as nice and un-threatening as possible as I do what I want.

Undersnatch · 25/05/2021 17:50

Thank you for your posts Jedi. I won’t bite your head off, but many of your points fantastically illustrate the problem that is bothering me so I’d like to respond to a few individually.

[Man here]. Please don't bite my head off. This post really does emphasize how insanely different men and women are, IMHO.

Why do you think men and women are so different? Could it be something to do with fear? Could it be to do with the fact that virtually all women have been leered at, sexually objectified, groped, all the way up the spectrum to rape and murder? We’d love to be casually relaxed about contact with men, the way men are with us, but statistically and experiential it is unsafe to do so.

I am stuck between 100% accepting a woman's perspective of what is creepy, and the following -

So not 100% accepting then.

(1) The app - why on earth does it not give your location on a map to within - say - 1/4 mile? Why on earth does it name your street? Why on earth are you on a site that gives this personal information away to all and sundry?

I joined the app because I want to have a closer community. I want to get to know local people, help them out, be neighbourly. What you have written implies there is something wrong about that (there is, because male behaviour puts me at risk).

(2) I take the view that if you are on an app that allows strangers to send you personal messages then you are open to personal messages from strangers. Likewise if you're walking in the street you might find yourself approached by strangers. Now obviously a polite man will - say - avoid approaching a lone woman at night in a quiet place because that is obviously highly likely to be intimidating. Obviously a man should speak from 2 metres away and not get right in your face. Obviously he should accept your lack of interest in any sort of communication if you are not interested in any sort of communication, and move away promptly to ensure that you don't feel intimidated. But I simply do not buy into the idea that approaching strangers in public is wrong. Obviously if the PM is overtly creepy the man should be reported and hopefully banned. If it is a little creepy then maybe he'll get banned if he's reported two or three times. But the idea that we aren't able to approach people who are in public, in public, or approach people who choose to be on apps with private messaging, via PM, seems nuts.

So I need to avoid public spaces if I don’t want random men I don’t know speaking to me? Is this what you are suggesting? Why did he PM me and not ask on the open forum if he was only interested in chat? I do think I need to leave the app, just like I need to avoid places where men like you think they are entitled to conversation with me.

"a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. " Well, noticing something made public on an app you chose to join is hardly outrageous, and asking questions is hardly outrageous. What were the questions?

He was asking questions about a park I live close to. Seeing as the public forum is filled with people who live next to the park why would he select one woman to ask when he could canvass the opinions of many - if he really wanted to know.

When is it appropriate for a man to speak to or communicate with a woman he does not know? Obviously if one or other is working then a short chat as you renew your car insurance is fine. Obviously on dating apps when you get matched? Obviously if the woman approaches the man then the man cannot be criticised? When else can a man speak to a woman he does not know?

I cannot give you a definitive rule book, however put simply, many men present a risk to women. Many don’t and when you are not it may feel frustrating to be judged. But with respect, you are coming across as a man who thinks he has the right to mock/dismiss a woman’s boundaries and suggest that if she doesn’t want to be approached by unknown men then she should stay out of sight. This makes me uncomfortable and I think you should go and think deeply about what you have said here.

OP posts:
JediGnot · 25/05/2021 17:54

@AssassinatedBeauty

It is not "the way men are". The men in my life are not like this. You have a very dim view of your own sex, and pathetically low expectations. Yes, men can do better. Yes we should expect them to do so. Yes we should be completely overhauling society to eliminate patriarchy and misogyny. It will benefit men as well as women.

The difference between men and women is not as big as you make out and certainly not something that need persist.

Entitled, egotistical, presumptive... I think a lot of men are like that... and those things aren't inherently wrong. I'd argue that a lot of women should behave more egotistically and entitled (perhaps when asking for a pay rise or complaining about shoddy service). To be clear, these things have a happy medium and I'd argue that in a less sexist world men would exhibit fewer of these tendencies and women more of them.

I am talking generally... men who egotistically expect women to fancy them and are entitled in expecting a positive response to flirting - those men can get lost as far as I am concerned.

Uninvited PMs, three options -

(1) Never ever send.
(2) Choose words carefully so as to minimize the chance of offence or intimidation.
(3) Shamelessly target women left right and centre.

We both agree that (3) is completely unacceptable, and we both agree that if men do (1) they will never offend or scare.

It seems to me - and I might be wrong - that the vast majority of men would not see a problem with (2), whilst the vast majority of women would. A fundemental difference between men and women, that relates to men being egotistical and entitled (because they are male in a patriarchal society). Egotism and entitlement are not all bad, but it would be good if both sexes got to share those feelings instead of men hoarding them.

Undersnatch · 25/05/2021 17:58

The world is there for me to interact with as I choose

It is. It is a man’s world, as they say. Women are not free to interact as they choose. We know from an early age (basically as soon as we hit puberty) - 12,13... that behaving in a friendly or kind way to many men is taken as a come on. Often eye contact can elicit unwanted attention. Honestly, I’d love it if you could spend some time imagining if you had less freedom to interact safely in your world.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 18:17

Oh please. It is not entitled or egotistical to know your worth and put that across to ask for a pay rise. It isn't entitled or egotistical to complain about poor service. Women are perfectly capable of doing both of those without needing the kind of crashingly boorish attitude that you ascribe to.

Regarding your numbered options. You have totally ignored what I explained to you was a reasonable strategy. So, option 4 - only send PMs when the recipient has made it clear that they are happy to receive them, either individually from you or from anyone. If in doubt, ask in public first. It's not complicated.

JediGnot · 25/05/2021 18:43

Assassinated - point taken re: option 4. Is that what most women would expect? Is that normal? It literally wouldn't cross my mind in a million years to do that, which is probably why my brain didn't even recognize the words when I read them.

Entitled / egotistical may not be the best words, but I am pretty damn sure that men's tendency to push for a pay rise probably come from a similar place to the place that says "sod it, I'll send him / her a quick message". Just more selfish and less giving a fuck. Women may do those things without a crushingly boorish attitude, but sometimes the crushingly boorish attitude probably gets men further than a more civil and stereotypically female approach.

Undersnatch [Might address a few points in your earlier long post later]

"The world is there for me to interact with as I choose

It is. It is a man’s world, as they say. Women are not free to interact as they choose. We know from an early age (basically as soon as we hit puberty) - 12,13... that behaving in a friendly or kind way to many men is taken as a come on. Often eye contact can elicit unwanted attention. Honestly, I’d love it if you could spend some time imagining if you had less freedom to interact safely in your world."

I'd have probably got to this point by thinking, eventually, but you have nailed it. We live in a disgusting patriarchy. The answer is equality. In the short term, however, you are asking men to cease doing things that they should be able to do, because of women's perceptions of their safety (perceptions grounded in reality, I'm not trying to deny that).

I am not the most empathetic man, and men tend to be much less empathetic... whilst I can sort of intellectually comprehend what it must be like constantly avoiding eye contact etc etc etc etc, I just can't empathize - it is just so utterly alien to my experience on this planet.

I am tempted to say that whilst women could and should make more effort to explain to men why they don't like such approaches (they shouldn't need to, but unfortunately they do), getting nasty men to stop being nasty ain't gonna happen, and stopping nice men doing things that they should be able to do with intimidating women might not be easy to achieve either (it is so counter-intuitive to my entire being I am sat here simultaneously accepting every word you say, and thinking "nah, I ain't changing"). I can't help thinking that the end goal - greater equality - is the only sensible goal.

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/05/2021 19:08

There will not be equality if men like you, who self describe as "nice", are unwilling to make any changes whatsoever because the patriarchy benefits you. As you say, men who are more openly misogynist definitely aren't going to voluntarily change. If so-called "nice" men object to being asked politely to do something as trivial as refrain from sending unsolicited PMs then we will get nowhere fast.

CrochetyCrochet · 25/05/2021 19:27

We live in a disgusting patriarchy. The answer is equality.

So how do you propose to achieve that?

Your stance appears to be that it's up to women to make fundamental changes in society by complaining more but nice men shouldn't have to do anything other than carry on, because ...well, they are nice, and nasty men won't take any notice anyway.

TLDR: It's up to women to try and change things (But hey, ladies it's not gonna work).

Fab.