Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

Oh, for fuck's sake, why did he come back?

I do not recall ever being told at school that no adult should ever speak to a strange child, nor do I recall ever seeing government advertising targetting adults pushing this message?
Have I missed the message? Or is it not made?

Proof (not that we needed any) that men need telling by someone they recognise as an authority figure.
If they haven't specifically been told by the boss not to do a thing, they assume they have the right to do the thing. Even if they are self identified Nice Guys.
And there's the problem in a nutshell.

Good point, Thelne. And none of the women on here are seen as authorities.

Really, MNHQ? A man can talk about approaching an unknown child for a random chat, but a woman gets deleted for referencing it?

Do I genuinely believe that were I to sit down with a woman on this thread and watch a load of videos of men approaching women in public that we would agree which were appropriate and which weren't?

What you don't seem able to understand, JediGnot, is that not every predatory man starts his approach with "alright darling, fancy some?" I have had everything from "these buses are always late, aren't they?" to "hello, is this seat taken?" as opening salvos develop, or attempt to, into some kind of creepy attempt to chat me up/find out more about me. I'm not sure if it's your blind entitlement or a genuine lack of understanding - and lack of willingness to listen and learn from the women on the receiving end of it - about just how often this happens and how fucking exhausting it is to have to perform the lightning risk assessment, how scary it can be when you have no idea if he's going to take an indication of no interest with good grace, or if I'm going to end up being called an "ugly dyke" (for some reason many men seem to think this is the worst insult imaginable) or be in fear for my physical safety.

Women have to do this every time they're approached by a strange man, no matter how inoffensive and superficially pleasant that initial approach may be, because far too many of us have seen the dark side when we say "no thank you". And to reiterate, it's fucking exhausting and we'd much rather not have to do it, thanks, so can you just leave us alone and ask your mates, brothers, sons, football teammates or whichever other men you interact with to leave us alone too, because we are so over this shit.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Good point, Thelne. And none of the women on here are seen as authorities.

To be honest I have zero problem ignoring authority if I disagree with it.

I will reflect on the how much truth there is in the assertion that "none of the women on here are seen as authorities."

I categorically think that women are authorities on certain things - I have no problem in accepting that the vast majority of interactions with strange men are unwanted inconveniences at absolute best, and quite often much worse.

I find it hard to accept that a small group, who may or may not be representative, are enough of an authority to tell me that I have no right to ever approach a strange woman. I have no evidence that any exist, but it would not surprise me if there are some women reading this thread thinking "I get where Jedi is coming from, but he's not expressing himself that well. I've got better things to do than back him up, not least because I'll get piled on too"

@VeryLongBeeeeep

Do I genuinely believe that were I to sit down with a woman on this thread and watch a load of videos of men approaching women in public that we would agree which were appropriate and which weren't?

What you don't seem able to understand, JediGnot, is that not every predatory man starts his approach with "alright darling, fancy some?" I have had everything from "these buses are always late, aren't they?" to "hello, is this seat taken?" as opening salvos develop, or attempt to, into some kind of creepy attempt to chat me up/find out more about me. I'm not sure if it's your blind entitlement or a genuine lack of understanding - and lack of willingness to listen and learn from the women on the receiving end of it - about just how often this happens and how fucking exhausting it is to have to perform the lightning risk assessment, how scary it can be when you have no idea if he's going to take an indication of no interest with good grace, or if I'm going to end up being called an "ugly dyke" (for some reason many men seem to think this is the worst insult imaginable) or be in fear for my physical safety.

Women have to do this every time they're approached by a strange man, no matter how inoffensive and superficially pleasant that initial approach may be, because far too many of us have seen the dark side when we say "no thank you". And to reiterate, it's fucking exhausting and we'd much rather not have to do it, thanks, so can you just leave us alone and ask your mates, brothers, sons, football teammates or whichever other men you interact with to leave us alone too, because we are so over this shit.

I understand where you are coming from, and that is part of the reason why it is very rare that I walk up to strange women for any reason.

And another question... do your perspectives and opinions in any way change if I were to say that I am referring to approaching women to -

(1) Hand out a flyer for a club night?

(2) Ask if they are interested in hearing about the church I go to?

Are those approaches equally unacceptable to approaching to ask the time or for directions? If so do you think religious people should be banned from trying to drum up support in public spaces? Should handing out flyers be illegal?

FWIW I do think that it should be a criminal offence to approach a stranger in any public place to try to encourage them to take up religion.

Women can't even get convictions for rape when the rapist admits he raped her.

Women: men in public might kill us, or rape us, or hurt us. Leave us alone, keep telling you.
Same man keeps saying yeah but what if I need this, or that, or something else, what about this next thing, this is important,?
Women: leave us alone.
Same man, no, uses far to many words but he keeps saying no, I won't leave you alone, I dont care what you want. Amazing, unsurprising, disappointing.
And he was safeguarding that kid in the park, he was probably the only decent bloke that kid had in his life that day, yeahhhh, right.

"... but it would not surprise me if there are some women reading this thread thinking "I get where Jedi is coming from, but he's not expressing himself that well. I've got better things to do than back him up, not least because I'll get piled on too"

It would surprise me a great deal if there are some women who think this. You seem creepier with every post, and you only seem able to see the world through your own lens. You may not understand why your words about men's "rights" to approach women are creepy, but women do.

By this topic being in FWR you can pretend that only raving feminists feel this way.

Feel free to ask on AIBU. Honestly, raising daughters to assertively deal with this shit is demoralising and tedious.

If we lived in a society where men didn't automatically feel superior to women in almost every way, and have some sense of entitlement to approach them, maybe women wouldn't spend so much time dreading the next creepy man.

I doubt many are agreeing. Just read the whole thread and the constant 'but what about...'. No. Just no. Leave. Us. Alone. Especially you.

because I'll get piled on too"

You think this is a pile on?

Bless.

Oh, come on, MN. He is!

Ok then.

Jedi. Please stop commenting now and stop reporting women on this thread for letting you know that they find your constant ignorance uncomfortable.

Can't say a man is a creep on a post about men being inappropriate creeps, when the man has deliberately been posting to wind everyone up? OK.

In case you thought the responses and views were those of a select few, @JediGnot, I’m just chiming in to add ... they’re not. They speak for me too. You keep referring to ‘rights’ and suggesting scenarios to test your righteousness: Just. Listen. Women are saying ‘leave us alone and here’s why’ and your responses are whataboutery.

@JediGnot another woman here chiming in to say, no I am not secretly thinking you’ve got a point.

You’re confirming women’s rightful uneasiness of men with every post you make, because your most pressing concern is establishing, with your little “thought experiments”, exactly how far you can go

Women say - we wish men would stop talking to us in public. We explain why. This is describing our boundary.

Men - but what about if you have dropped a glove? What if you are in danger? What if a very lonely man needs human interaction and if he doesn’t talk to women in public he might kill himself? This is pushing back on the boundary to establish how much you can violate it and get away with it

Women are tired because we are not stupid, we have seen these boundary-violating ploys our whole lives and we see you. we know what you’re doing.

And as for you talking to unknown children when their parents are not present and maintaining some fantasy that you made his life better - fuck off creep and do not talk to our children.

Yeah @JediGnot, another voice here, saying, no I hadn't posted on this thread before, and no, it certainly wasn't because I was in agreement with you and afraid of being piled on. A bit concerned about being on the receiving end of your relentless twisting of what's been said, and monologuing, yes. I'm a feminist but don't often post in this section, as I feel a bit out of my depth and usually women far more articulate than me say what I'm thinking. But fuck it, you've pissed me off to the extent that I'm going to leap in.

Why can't you just listen to women? On this thread, a woman literally posted that they no longer wished to engage with you. You responded. They reiterated that they didn't want to speak with you, to which your response was basically, okay, but I'm going to keep talking to you anyway, it's my right to do so. Why? You've been told quite firmly, directly and politely that most of the women here don't want to interact with you, and instead of pausing to think about why that might be, you've dug in your heels and said, but why, it's my right.

Then there's the repeated 'oh I support women, I agree with you... But... Except... What if...'. So you don't actually support women or want to listen to us. You want your voice to be heard.

The ever more fanciful scenarios about but what if I needed directions / help / have to hand out a flyer / if x, y, and z happened. Just more ways of trying to justify forcing yourself on women who aren't interested in what you have to say.

Oh but I'm a nice guy, one of the good ones. No. You're not. You're getting your kicks asserting your perceived dominance over women, and we fucking see it. You can dress it up in all the waffle and weasel words you like, but it's still blatant. You're a creep. And abusive. And you can report me if you like. I don't think I've ever had a post deleted in 12 years on here. And MN is a huge source of support to me. But get me deleted, fuck it, get me banned if you want. I feel like saying all that was worth it. It is the hill I'm willing to die on, as such. So maybe have a think about why you've provoked such a strong reaction in so many women here. And then fuck off.

The thing with creeps, like a certain poster, is that they know what they are doing, and it is for control of women.

Feel free to approach me or my kids, we will absolutely destroy you. The world is changing. I will not be intimidated by men who think they have control over my emotions. I will tell you to bog off and call you a creep. Creep.

I find it hard to accept that a small group, who may or may not be representative, are enough of an authority to tell me that I have no right to ever approach a strange woman.

65 posts! All about you and your wounded sense of entitlement to approach strange women...

I have no evidence that any exist, but it would not surprise me if there are some women reading this thread thinking "I get where Jedi is coming from, but he's not expressing himself that well. I've got better things to do than back him up, not least because I'll get piled on too"

Nope.