Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

The Whataboutery is truly strong in this one!

Mate - you are pushing aginat a firmly closed door.

You insist you understand and yet still you push

And now you are posing ludicrous situations to try and make your opinion important

Why are you doing that?

Why can't you just accept that no matter what the male centric, patriarchal laws and social mores are in this country, many women find any many approaching them in any circumstance to be an unsettling one?

Take a step back and try to really understand that the first thought isn't "How can I help?" but "Shit, where could I run to?" That frisson of fear can happen any time, any day. For the whole of your life! Simply because you are a woman and men, as you have said so often here, have a right to start a discussion because it ain't against the law.

Again, channeling Baroness Warsi, just because you can doesn't mean you should

VettiyaIruken

"If you are talking about saying excuse me, do you know the time? Or sorry to bother you, do you know where entitled street is to someone in the street that is an entirely different thing and nothing to do with the subject of men creeping on random women and I suspect you know that."

Well, I have been getting the impression that many women on this thread think that because many men are creepy (true) and most women are wary because of their experience of creepy men (true) and most women would rather simply not interact with any strange man ever (quite probably true) that means men have no right to ask the time.

I really need to hide this thread (just noticed the hide button on this forum).

BaseDrops

I would love to know what a mumsnet-approved all-seeing feminist goddess made of my behaviour in public around women I do not know.

I suspect that I am not perfect - few people are - but I honestly believe that said goddess would judge my behaviour and pretty much approve.

Yes, it's creepy. Some people (not just men) lack the social skills to see this as inappropriate. The reason why they do doesn't really matter. It's not your problem.

I would just block him. If he displays any other creepiness, then either deal with it in the group or tell him directly that you don't want him to contact you outside of the group.

I do not recall ever being told at school that no adult should ever speak to a strange child

Perhaps not, but did your parents ever tell you that if you were in trouble, lost or whatever as a child to "find a lady", "speak to a lady" , "tell a lady"? Why was that?

nor do I recall ever seeing government advertising targetting adults pushing this message?

This is just laughable

Ha ha ha, yeah, sure. Plenty of goddesses right here observing your behaviour around women and judging you. Yes we got taught at school not to talk to strangers, yes we teach our kids not to talk to strangers. Stranger Danger is a thing. Most adults do not need to have someone have this chat with them, because they know adults are their peers and it is wrong to challenge kids boundaries on maintaining their own safety in public, to test it. Its weird and rude and not safe.
Just because you have a kid with you in a playground, your own kid, doesn't mean its ok to start chatting to a random unknown kid. Its a way of dismantling boundaries, how grooming works. Just because you think you are safe you are weakening kids abilities and judgement for next time, to refuse to talk to a stranger. You have zero respect for other people, or kids, wow.

@jellybeansforbreakfast

The Whataboutery is truly strong in this one!

Mate - you are pushing aginat a firmly closed door.

You insist you understand and yet still you push

And now you are posing ludicrous situations to try and make your opinion important

Why are you doing that?

Why can't you just accept that no matter what the male centric, patriarchal laws and social mores are in this country, many women find any many approaching them in any circumstance to be an unsettling one?

Take a step back and try to really understand that the first thought isn't "How can I help?" but "Shit, where could I run to?" That frisson of fear can happen any time, any day. For the whole of your life! Simply because you are a woman and men, as you have said so often here, have a right to start a discussion because it ain't against the law.

Again, channeling Baroness Warsi, just because you can doesn't mean you should

jellybeansforbreakfast

Why can't you just accept that no matter what the male centric, patriarchal laws and social mores are in this country, many women find any many approaching them in any circumstance to be an unsettling one?

I really am trying to stop post, but that triggered me!

I 100% accept that many women find any man approaching them in any circumstance to be an unsettling one! I have acknowledged that, and that is why I believe that men have a massive responsibility to try not to unsettle women, and one way of doing that is by not approaching women constantly, or indeed often at all.

A better way of never unsettling women would be to never approach women. However I do not believe that any person has the right go through the entirety of their lives never feeling unsettled, I believe that the right of strangers to interact occasionally trumps the right of women who never ever want a strange man to approach them to never be approached and unsettled!

If you believe that human being have a right to not be unsettled would you join me in my campaigning to make it illegal to make public that you are a tory or believe in god as being around religious people and tories is unsettling to me. (Not as unsettling as creeps are to women, but unsettling nevertheless).

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Agreed.

@Cleverestclog

I do not recall ever being told at school that no adult should ever speak to a strange child

Perhaps not, but did your parents ever tell you that if you were in trouble, lost or whatever as a child to "find a lady", "speak to a lady" , "tell a lady"? Why was that?

nor do I recall ever seeing government advertising targetting adults pushing this message?

This is just laughable

Point one - agreed.

Point two - government advertises telling adults to never speak to strange children? Evidence? Maybe I missed it.

It's like you're walking home late at night, and you pass a dark alley that is a great shortcut, but at night is frequented by drug addicts/dealers/gangs whatever and there's a lot of trouble there. You know this. You don't want to get (at the very least) mugged, possibly worse. So you avoid the alley and take the long way home.

If one the drug addicts lurking in the shadows got all offended that you thought he 'might' be violent instead of respecting your personal safety, you'd think he was nuts!

I don't know why men say 'oh but IM not a creep/mugger/rapist, not ME' and then get all affronted when we say but WE don't know that!?

Jedi wants us to believe that he has a child that he takes to the playpark and welcomes lone children into their game of football...

Aye, right.

Does anyone remember Brian from Hull? He was a laugh.

And you need to hide the thread? Kids in playgrounds, that time I met Jack the Ripper on my way home one night, but I want to ask 15 year old girls to help me find my way home, never say never? Bingo, full house, reported, you are trolling. You probably are the same real man, which is kind of worse, 'but but I have a posting history' of similar nonsense. We've all met plenty of men like you before, but the way you are behaving is pure trolly.
Men kill women in public, you can't argue with that.

Well, I have been getting the impression that many women on this thread think that because many men are creepy (true) and most women are wary because of their experience of creepy men (true) and most women would rather simply not interact with any strange man ever (quite probably true) that means men have no right to ask the time.

Nope, that’s not what we are saying.

Men can ask the time.

Men do ask the time knowing that there is a possibility of the woman feeling unsafe.

What we are saying is:

We wish men wouldn’t do this.

Women know that men don’t like being treated as hostile by frightened women, when the men think they are not a threat.

Men don’t like it when women state that perceived threat is in the mind of the woman and is not based on the man’s intent.

Men can do all the approaching they want, they already do. What men do not get to do is expect different treatment because they think that they are not a threat. Men also get huffy when this does not happen. This is not an issue women can fix.

As long as creepymen aren't unsettled by being ignored or told that their attention is unwanted, I guess we can all do whatever we want...except men KNOW women find it unsettling and persist with it regardless. I guess that is a form of intent.

Get a watch and stop harassing women hoping they will be to vulnerable to tell you to get lost.

@ArthurApples

Ha ha ha, yeah, sure. Plenty of goddesses right here observing your behaviour around women and judging you. Yes we got taught at school not to talk to strangers, yes we teach our kids not to talk to strangers. Stranger Danger is a thing. Most adults do not need to have someone have this chat with them, because they know adults are their peers and it is wrong to challenge kids boundaries on maintaining their own safety in public, to test it. Its weird and rude and not safe. Just because you have a kid with you in a playground, your own kid, doesn't mean its ok to start chatting to a random unknown kid. Its a way of dismantling boundaries, how grooming works. Just because you think you are safe you are weakening kids abilities and judgement for next time, to refuse to talk to a stranger. You have zero respect for other people, or kids, wow.

Point taken, but... thinking back to the last time it happened...

(1) The kid in question told me he lived in London with his mum... he was visiting his dad (holidays or weekend, can't remember, but I think it was during the week). He had seemingly been left, as a 11-12 year old, to fend for himself for the day whilst the dad was at work.

(2) Do you think that I should have left the playground immediately I saw the kid was there already?

(3) If not, do you think I should have avoided eye contact with him?

(4) I genuinely can't remember which of us spoke first but I suspect it was me just saying hi, because I am the sort of person who thinks it's fucking rude to ignore people you are sharing space with. (maybe I am weird and this is wrong). You think I was wrong to say hi?

(4) I can see how speaking to him and allowing his day of his abandonment to be broken up with a kickaround with some random adult and his son could play a small part in making him more vulnerable in future. I had never considered that before.

(5) I also think that he was probably bored and lonely and that me and my son improved his day a little. That doesn't mean I am forgetting (4).

An irony of all of this is that I strongly suspect that overall women and children would be safer if many more people in society intereadcted with strangers and made society more of a society and less of a mass off selfish individuals who blank everything around them

Point two - government advertises telling adults to never speak to strange children? Evidence? Maybe I missed it.

Well, you've missed the point, that's for sure. What is laughable is you saying you didn't see any "government advertising" pushing the message to adults to not approach children they didn't know. Why would grown adults need a government message to tell them this?

TL;DR: there was no message

I've not seen any government message telling me not to stick a knitting needle in my eye, but I still know not to do it.

@ArthurApples

And you need to hide the thread? Kids in playgrounds, that time I met Jack the Ripper on my way home one night, but I want to ask 15 year old girls to help me find my way home, never say never? Bingo, full house, reported, you are trolling. You probably are the same real man, which is kind of worse, 'but but I have a posting history' of similar nonsense. We've all met plenty of men like you before, but the way you are behaving is pure trolly. Men kill women in public, you can't argue with that.

I find that on the internet there are two main types of conversation -

The utterly pointless ones which involve OP saying "x", and everyone else saying "we agree with x".

The less pointless ones which involve people offering different perspectives and getting accused of trolling.

FWIW the last time I was accused of trolling on the internet was on a thread about labour electability - the site is pro-trans-rights and I was accused of trolling for suggesting that labour might wish to consider taking women's sex-based rights more seriously, as many women seem to be left-leaning but considering voting tory for the first time ever because they think the likes of stonewall have gone too far. I really don't get offended if accused of trolling.

You're amazing.

@Cleverestclog

Point two - government advertises telling adults to never speak to strange children? Evidence? Maybe I missed it.

Well, you've missed the point, that's for sure. What is laughable is you saying you didn't see any "government advertising" pushing the message to adults to not approach children they didn't know. Why would grown adults need a government message to tell them this?

TL;DR: there was no message

I've not seen any government message telling me not to stick a knitting needle in my eye, but I still know not to do it.

Look, I don't need to be told that leaving the house by myself to go down the local park to see if the 12 year olds want to play with me would be deeply deeply inappropriate and disturbing!

If you're saying that it is completely inappropriate at all times to interact with strange children, then sorry, that is news to me. [Obviously neither of us are saying that it wouldn't be appropriate to step in to prevent an abduction, or to tell another child to stop punching your own child]

Actually, you've reminded me... I used to skate a fair bit and there was something really fucking cool about going to skateparks where you'd typically have no supervising adults, the odd kid under 10, loads of teens (some kids, some 18-19) and the odd "proper adult"... and sometime the park-keeper would be hanging around too keeping a bit of an eye on things... something really nice about different age groups interacting, the older ones looking out for the younger ones. I'm not saying I'd want a young teen of mine in such an environment, let alone a 7 or 9 year old, but given the reality of those kid's experience - being let out to wander unsupervised in a rough bit of outer London - that intergenerational interaction in a skatepark was probably pretty damn good for them. There was one kid I often saw there at quiet times when few people were around, probably about 15 or 16, got the impression he was from a single parent household and at a really rough school... we used to talk quite a lot and I'd like to think that I might have had a small positive affect on his life when I talked with him about his options, what he was gonna do after GCSEs, his interest in photography. I'd hate to live in a society that made such interaction unacceptable or illegal]

@ArthurApples

You're amazing.

Thank you - you are too.

These "man here" threads all go the same way in the end. This way.

I really appreciated Jaxhog's comment at 13:29 trying to pull this thread back on track. A thread about a real scenario that happened to a real woman in the real world.

Hope you managed to get the situation sorted, OP. Some good advice on this thread.

I wonder if men ever wake up at 2 am with their cheeks burning with shame when they finally realise what a rude, crashing bore they have been? I guess not, because they would learn not to behave like this.

You are super weird. Creepy conversation to have with a kid.
But hold on, we have an ally, thank God for that.

I really don't get offended if accused of trolling.

Or that you are being a typical mae and trying to talk all over women!

You really are not listening. You are interpreting and either ignoring or taking daft offence, depending. But you aren't actually listening.

But you have done a stirling job of proving OPs point.

You have also done an excellent job for The Monitors who can now scrape this thread for a mountain of proof that MNers all hate men.

Thanks for that too!

But you have done a stirling job of proving OPs point.

Yes, I agree!

Total fantasist. Shame he never mentioned he's a feminist sooner, so hard to tell. Cautionary tale.