Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

"Why should a woman post a fake picture, why she she have to hide herself at all. men should just be respectful and not bomb women's private messages."

Agree 100%

"I play a word game, my user name is 'dontmessagemeever' yet multiple times a day men message with creepy sexual message. For extra context, on the game my profile picture is a tree, and my location set as timbuckto"

Do you get lots of messages saying "why don't you want me to message you?" as if the person is replying to what you said to them?

"It wouldn't cross my mind in a million years to ask publicly first for permission to private message.
But that is what men should do. And they should accept 'no thanks' as an answer and move on.
They should also not leave threatening messages if they don't get an answer within 3 minutes of posting. "

Accepting "no thanks" and not starting abuse because someone fails to respond in 2 minutes are two obvious bare minimums.

In all seriousness what percentage of men do you think have ever heard the message "never contact a woman directly unless invited to?" and what percentage have heard it?

Just to be clear, as a man confident in the world I do my absolute best not to have my picture anywhere online. Neither of my facebook profiles have my face, I deleted my 15 year old photo on linked in, I untag myself from photos other people post on facebook.

Women should be able to use real photos, but it is not just women who don't have them for reasons of safety and privacy.

I don't think I am entitled to a conversation - I think I am entitled to approach, just as you are entitled to make it clear that you wish me to back off

JediGnot, I appreciate your posts here. It’s good to hear from a man. There are many comments of yours that I wanted to reply to but I chose the one above because it illustrates the imbalance that you probably don’t see. Women rarely make it clear they want men to back off because that in and of itself is risky.

When I get unwanted “Hellos” and the like from random men, I either pretend I didn’t hear (no offence caused to creepy man) or smile vaguely if I can’t get away eg if I’m on a train. That’s self-preservation. I don’t want the man to potentially kick off at me. It’s frightening. You don’t see that because you’re not as vulnerable. So when you approach a woman, the response you get from her might not be the full measure of what she’s feeling eg I walked past a random man yesterday, didn’t make eye contact but still got the “Hello, love” thing. I briefly acknowledged him with a glance and walked on quickly. But inside I was shouting “Fuck off !” So the response you see from women isn’t likely to be their genuine response.

It reminds me very much of a feature on Radio 4 where they discussed unwanted attention and the example was a man talking to a woman on a Tube train where the woman had headphones in listening to music. The woman said how men would wave their hand in front of her face if she didn’t answer them when they spoke to her. If she turned away, they’d tap her arm. The man being interviewed just couldn’t get the idea that the woman in that situation wasn’t deaf, she did not want to engage with the man .

When the presenter finally managed to get that point across to the man, he still couldn’t understand and replied that he wouldn’t be offended if a “sexy lady” tapped his arm like that. To me, that perfectly illustrated the point. Random man sees himself as sexy stranger, random woman sees him as revolting creep. Man can’t understand why any woman would not want his attention.

"Women rarely make it clear they want men to back off because that in and of itself is risky."

I do get that. 100%.

I'd perhaps look at it the other way... I kinda assume that any decent man approaching a woman for any reason could and would assume that the default is that you have to make it clear that you are / will back off. In other words ensure the woman knows within 1-2 seconds that it will be a very brief interaction unless she makes it clear she is happy for it to continue.

Obviously lots of men aren't decent and women have to assume the worst.

That tube example. The headphones are a big clue that the person ain't up for a chat. Take the hint. Having said that we do live in a society, where people are in public with strangers and are forced to constantly interract, whether subtly (moving aside silently as you approach each other on a pavement) or more directly. I completely get why women would not want to be approached unless necessary (excuse me, can you take those headphones off so you can hear the fire alarm!), but I also cannot help but think that it is a little arrogant and rude to assume that you have the right not to have people interract with you in public. To assume that the person tapping your shoulder has nothing to say worth hearing.

Can you see why a man might be offended at being dismissed out of hand without a word being said? I am not saying that a man has a right not to be offended, or has a right for that woman to interract with him - I am just trying to present the opposite viewpoint. Clearly the primary issues are women's safety and women's perception of safety, not man's right not to be mildly offended

To be clear... 99.9% of the time the woman is probably right - the man has nothing to say worth hearing. I am not telling women that they should prioritize men's feelings over doing what they want to do or doing what they think is best for their own safety - that would be ludicrous.

But I do find this idea that human beings, social animals, should never interract with strangers in public quite disturbing too.

Clearly my problem is trivial compared to women's safety and women's perception of safety, but it is somewhat frustrating when one is being deliberately ignored despite going out of one's way to return a dropped bank card.

Where I live it is pretty normal to to say hello to strangers when walking in the countryside, or even in the bit of town I'm in. It wouldn't cross my mind to say "hello love" when "hello" or "morning" says precisely the same thing in a much better way.

"Random man sees himself as sexy stranger, random woman sees him as revolting creep."

I have to say that however much I understand why the majority of women would take that view, and have a right to given their experience of living in a patriarchy, surely you can also see why a man, even an imperfect one, might not like to be treated and thought of like that.

We are talking proper first world problems here. The problem of being assumed to be an oppressor, because you are part of a class of person who are oppressors! Hardly the same as being beaten up for being a lesbian or constantly harrassed day in day out for decades.

Not sure what point I'm trying to make... I am not criticizing women one little bit... I suppose I'm just saying that the problem is women's safety and women's perception of their own safety, and women's right not to be harrassed. The problem is not that men should never approach women (though I concede that given women's perception of their own safety, and women's right not to be harrassed the vast majority of men would be best off not approaching women the vast majority of the time).

Jedi you are not listening to us women.

I suspect this is not new behaviour for you.

It's certainly not novel for us.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Jedi you are not listening to us women.

I suspect this is not new behaviour for you.

It's certainly not novel for us.

Sorry, what bit am I not listening to?

Don't say "hello love" to random women on your way about the countryside. They aren't your love. Just say "hello" or "morning" just as you would to a man you passed, if you want to have a minimal interaction like that.

Recent women walking alone in the countryside/street included Julia James, Maria Rawlings, Sarah Everard... do you get the point why women are guarded when random men approach them??

I am enjoying wasting some time on MN before the next bit of my day. It's not my job to explain what male entitlement looks like to you - but as your own posts are peppered with it, perhaps go and read them again?

Maybe highlight every "but" and "I'm not saying" and "surely you can also see" and "I'd look at it the other way"?

Frankly, Jedi even you popping up on a thread called "response to men's creepiness" to tell us that the poor men don't mean it, is a bit, you know, creepy.

Just want to make the point again, @JediGnot, you are not an ally to women no matter how much of a "nice guy" you believe yourself to be. You are upset at even the idea that women might think of you as a potential threat and be guarded. Your upset at this is more important to you than women's safety and their perception of safety. You are upset at the idea that women might just want to be completely left alone by men, and again your feelings are more important to consider and discuss than what women want.

@AssassinatedBeauty

Don't say "hello love" to random women on your way about the countryside. They aren't your love. Just say "hello" or "morning" just as you would to a man you passed, if you want to have a minimal interaction like that.

Recent women walking alone in the countryside/street included Julia James, Maria Rawlings, Sarah Everard... do you get the point why women are guarded when random men approach them??

I did say

Where I live it is pretty normal to to say hello to strangers when walking in the countryside, or even in the bit of town I'm in. It wouldn't cross my mind to say "hello love" when "hello" or "morning" says precisely the same thing in a much better way.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I am enjoying wasting some time on MN before the next bit of my day. It's not my job to explain what male entitlement looks like to you - but as your own posts are peppered with it, perhaps go and read them again?

Maybe highlight every "but" and "I'm not saying" and "surely you can also see" and "I'd look at it the other way"?

Do you understand that it is possible to 100% understand the women's perspective, respect it and also believe that the issue is not simple black and white with no nuance or alternative perspective?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Frankly, Jedi even you popping up on a thread called "response to men's creepiness" to tell us that the poor men don't mean it, is a bit, you know, creepy.

Where did I say the poor men don't mean it?

@AssassinatedBeauty

Just want to make the point again, *@JediGnot*, you are not an ally to women no matter how much of a "nice guy" you believe yourself to be. You are upset at even the idea that women might think of you as a potential threat and be guarded. Your upset at this is more important to you than women's safety and their perception of safety. You are upset at the idea that women might just want to be completely left alone by men, and again your feelings are more important to consider and discuss than what women want.

Where did I say that my upset is more important than women's safety? I did not, I said clearly and unambiguously that women's safety AND THEIR PERCEPTION OF THEIR SAFETY is more important.

"Clearly my problem is trivial compared to women's safety and women's perception of safety"

Why don't people read before they post?

Look at me, not engaging with you, Jedi

I am not interested in you or what you think. You are not news to me. You are exactly the same as all the other "nice guys" who want me to "understand" how much they understand women, and there are loads of them.

The answer is men never approach women [they don't know] under any circumstance

I think this is a good rule and one I am bringing my sons up to follow.

I have lived nearly 5 decades, mostly in major cities, and I have never approached a stranger in the street for a chat. My interaction with strangers is limited to 'you dropped your scarf!' and 'is this the right platform for Slough?'

I wish more men adhered to this basic public courtesy. Women going about their business do not want to talk to men they don't know.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Look at me, not engaging with you, Jedi

I am not interested in you or what you think. You are not news to me. You are exactly the same as all the other "nice guys" who want me to "understand" how much they understand women, and there are loads of them.

I am sorry that you don't think that the truth is a little more complex than men should never approach women strangers online or in public.

Echoing the never approach women you don’t know. We’re over it. I don’t want to tell you what I’m listening to on my headphones. I don’t want to cheer up. I don’t even want to give you directions or tell you the time. Men seem much more keen on chatting with strangers so approach them in future.

@FKATondelayo

The answer is men never approach women [they don't know] under any circumstance

I think this is a good rule and one I am bringing my sons up to follow.

I have lived nearly 5 decades, mostly in major cities, and I have never approached a stranger in the street for a chat. My interaction with strangers is limited to 'you dropped your scarf!' and 'is this the right platform for Slough?'

I wish more men adhered to this basic public courtesy. Women going about their business do not want to talk to men they don't know.

I think this is sad. When I lived in London I had been into about 10 or 15 of the 50 houses on the street. I have had wonderful conversations with random people on trains. Gone on informal group events where dozens of people turn up and there are all sorts of strangers (albeit with a very loose affiliation) talking to each other.

I note that you are contradicting yourself - "never under any circumstances" then implying that it is OK for your sons to offer to return a scarf or ask about a platform. Which is it, never or only in very specific practical circumstances?

And I really am arguing to right for all human beings, social animals, in public, to interract briefly - I am not arguing to right to chat up or engage in a long conversation (if you think I did please point me to the post so I can clarify).

@SillyLittleBiscuit

Echoing the never approach women you don’t know. We’re over it. I don’t want to tell you what I’m listening to on my headphones. I don’t want to cheer up. I don’t even want to give you directions or tell you the time. Men seem much more keen on chatting with strangers so approach them in future.

Yes, indeed. If men want to indulge their entitlement to engage strangers in chat, then do it with other men. A whole 50% of the population available to meet your demands. Leave the rest of us alone.

@SillyLittleBiscuit

Echoing the never approach women you don’t know. We’re over it. I don’t want to tell you what I’m listening to on my headphones. I don’t want to cheer up. I don’t even want to give you directions or tell you the time. Men seem much more keen on chatting with strangers so approach them in future.

I note that I have not said that I think it is acceptable for men to approach a woman wearing headphones (a sign that they probably want to listen to music and not talk) to have a chat about the woman's music.

I note that I have not said that I think it is acceptable for men to tell women to cheer up.

I note that I often don't want to give directions or tell people the time either, but that engaging in brief practical conversation with strangers is arguably a responsibility that comes with spending time in public that goes along with the right not to be harrassed.

"Yes, indeed. If men want to indulge their entitlement to engage strangers in chat, then do it with other men. A whole 50% of the population available to meet your demands. Leave the rest of us alone."

Where did I say that I think men have a right to engage strangers in chat?

I am sorry that you don't think that the truth is a little more complex than men should never approach women strangers online or in public. And THAT is what we have spent a lifetime trying to explain to every man who ever stopped us to say somethng inane as we were walking down the street.

Walking down the street - you know me? Se me a lot with my dog? Say hellow, smile, walk on

You don't know me - don't even begin to initiate any contact at all - why would you? I haven't done anything to indicate I want to chat to you, I won't have made more than a fleeting eye contact at most. Why on Earth would you think that's OK to start chatting to me?

Online - in a public forum, chat on. No PMs etc cos I don't now you and haven't asked for some 1-2-1 with you! If you can't say it in public, in the whole group, then you KNOW you probably shouldn't be saying it at all. Dating shite excepted obviously - and even then - keep your dickpicks and other fuckwitted shite to yourself!

In a pub, at apparty, BBQ any other place people go to socialise - say hi, chat away. But if I turn away, say no thanks etc, just piss off! I am not interested. Not snobby, my legs haven't frozen shut, I am not gay (others might be) , nor am I frigid, no I haven't judged you to be lesser than, not good enough for me. I just don't want to talk to you!

There's a lot more... but I have spent 50+ years trying to make myself heard by the normal looking, pleasantly smiling bloke approaching me on the street. The ones who look hurt, insulted when I try to get by and ignore them and the ones who go for a quick grope, they are all the same to me. They offer unasked for attention and have an expectation of being received with some level of enthusiasm.

That's the deal @JediGnot

That you think that is complicated, unfair, unfreiendly etc is the problem. No matter how many women have tried to explain it, no mater howpolite, detailed, robust, rude... you still come back to "Not all men feel like that we just want to be friendly"

Bluntly - I don't care. An unknown man making unsolicited approaches to me is at best an irritation and at worst could physically hurt me. I make the choice of when I put myself 'out there' for being approached, chatted to. I go to places where that is socially accepted, in real life or online. Merely having a presence in real life or online is NOT an invitation. My existence is not for the delectation of men!

So listen - you really haven't so far. You have heard and dismissed because you have different perspective. And that is, in and of itself, the whole bloody issue! A male issue made into a female issue.

My fear = your irritation. Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

Yup. Everything Curious said. Nailed it.