Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

Where did I say ""Not all men feel like that we just want to be friendly".

I really do think that I might be talking at cross purposes with most on this thread, and that if we were to review 50 random videos of men approaching women we might well agree that 40 were unnacceptable and intrusive (at best) and 10 were brief, polite, unthreatening practical interactions of the sort it would be ludicrous to call unacceptable.

You did note that I said my irritation was TRIVIAL (ie almost nothing!) compared to women's safety and PERCEPTION OF SAFETY. You did read that didn't you?

Merely having a presence in real life or online is NOT an invitation. My existence is not for the delectation of men!

Agree up to the point that you live in a society and a society involves some interaction with strangers, unless you wish to buy a hut in the middle of nowhere in the outer hebrides. Men and women both have a right not to be harrassed. Neither men nor women have a right never to be approached by strangers. Men have a responsibility to minimize the amount they scare women or make them uncomfortable (and vice versa, albeit most women can ignore their responsibility whilst still not scaring men). IMO

Oh @JediGnot I see you trying to come across as a nice guy and you seem to feel personally offended by some of the posts directed at you, because you feel women (and men) don't have a right to not be engaged with in public spheres.

Listen up: women, on the whole, do not want to be engaged with. If you feel that we don't have a right to not engage or suffer from male attention - blame it on the millions of men who have been creepy and conditioned us women to be afraid of men. Tell the men to change their behaviour, even if they think how they behave is not creepy.

Don't tell women to avoid, and deny us access, to public spheres.

"Man can’t understand why any woman would not want his attention" Exactly. Women just don't want the attention and possible risks, men feel they have a right to impose themselves regardless. Sigh.

It's very interesting how much you talk in terms of entitlement, JediGnot. It's not really about rights. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You have been told over and over again by women here that they really, really don't want men they don't know approaching them unless it's a dating type situation. You, over and over again, have said that you have a right to as long as you are not 'harassing' that woman.
As I said before, maybe you could change your behaviour to what women would like rather than what you have a 'right' to do.

Where did I say ""Not all men feel like that we just want to be friendly". I paraphrased all of your posts - that is what you are saying when you say that you thnk inane and idle chatter in public, with people you don't necessarily know is. Being friendly, chatting!

You did note that I said my irritation was TRIVIAL (ie almost nothing!) compared to women's safety and PERCEPTION OF SAFETY. You did read that didn't you? Yes, of course I did. But it was caveated by the sentence I last repsonded to I am sorry that you don't think that the truth is a little more complex than men should never approach women strangers online or in public. something no woman has said! - sa I explained in some detail.

Agree up to the point that you live in a society and a society involves some interaction with strangers, unless you wish to buy a hut in the middle of nowhere in the outer hebrides. Really? THAT is what you think any woman who does not want to be approached by strangers, men with expectations should do?

Not that men should stop and think about why so many women flinch, step back, avoid making any contact even in broad daylight?

You think that in order to live in society I MUST accept whatever unwanted approaches I receive as a matter of course - else go live on a rock?

Neither men nor women have a right never to be approached by strangers. Ah! THAT might be the reason we are 'talking at cros puposes, and your repsonse about a som returning a scarf earlier. You see I am female. Not stupid, hysterical, man hating etc etc etc.

I can see what an approach with meaning is, I'd accept the scarf, the bank card even if my initial reaction was to guard myself. I am prerfectly capable of assessing risk... it's just that you don't seem to think I should be allowed to say out loud that that is what I am doing EVERY time a man I do not know makes an overture towards me! Because it is unfair, unfreindly, though you may have other words for it.

Men have a responsibility to minimize the amount they scare women or make them uncomfortable They also have the responsibility to accept that no matter how much they do this some women in some situations will STILL feel uncomfortable and want them to go away!

jedi I said "I am not engaging with you" and put on my headphones.

You said "I am sorry that you don't think that the truth is a little more complex than men should never approach women strangers online or in public"

So, there you go, you proved my point. I said "leave me alone" and you had to talk to me.

Try it, try leaving me, a woman who is saying she wants to be left alone, alone.

I've just done a bit of googling, and a lot of what came up with was utter drivel (advice on how to chat up women by self-identified nice guys for example).

One article I found included these words -

*"But I have never in my life been angry with a man for approaching me at random, so long as he treated me like a human being when he did so.

Yet, this rarely happens."*

I'd like to think that this was the answer.

Men and women have the right to approach strangers given that we live in a society. Men and women do not have a right to make others feel uncomfortable or unsafe. In practical terms this means that men really do need to be extremely careful about how when and why they approach women, and if in doubt it's always best to leave women alone.

[Aside - A society is a group of individuals involved in persistent social interaction, or a large social group sharing the same spatial or social territory, typically subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. I can't help feeling that the last 40 years of divisive right wing politics has lead everyone to believe 100% in rights and 0% in responsibility - I believe in both... women's responsibility to be welcoming to strangers is miniscule compared to their right to be and feel safe, but I do believe that in society we do all have some responsibility to engage in human interaction with humans around us (which is not to deny that any woman has a right to ignore any man she wants at any time for any reason)]

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

jedi I said "I am not engaging with you" and put on my headphones.

You said "I am sorry that you don't think that the truth is a little more complex than men should never approach women strangers online or in public"

So, there you go, you proved my point. I said "leave me alone" and you had to talk to me.

Try it, try leaving me, a woman who is saying she wants to be left alone, alone.

I would have edited my post if I could have - I intended to respond to your words which I have a right to do, whilst respecting the fact that you did not wish me to respond to you. I am sorry.

Most women interact with society all the time. We have partners, lovers, family, friends, colleagues, hobbies, sports, community activities, children, schools, politics, campaigns, pets etc. We are generally not walking around desperately hoping a random bloke will fill the gap with some banter.

6 pages of women telling a man why they don’t want him to approach them in public or private message them.

Man: Blah blah blah but men have the right to approach strangers, blah blah and women have a responsibility to be welcoming.

Jesus fucking Christ.

I honestly despair.

@CrochetyCrochet

It's very interesting how much you talk in terms of entitlement, JediGnot. It's not really about rights. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You have been told over and over again by women here that they really, really don't want men they don't know approaching them unless it's a dating type situation. You, over and over again, have said that you have a right to as long as you are not 'harassing' that woman. As I said before, maybe you could change your behaviour to what women would like rather than what you have a 'right' to do.

I have consistently talked about the right to approach strangers. I have not at all said or (at least intentionally) implied that I think it should be going on much.

I think of it similar to how I think about jokes about race. 99.9999% of jokes about race are racist and 99.9999% of people should never make jokes about race because it won't end well 99.9999% of the time.

However, that's not the same as saying "no one should ever make a joke about race", because there are a couple of very clever and compassionate comedians who are capable of making intelligent, funny, non-racist jokes about race.

In terms of changing my behaviour, this really isn't about my behaviour. I am a miserable sod who is happy to spend time with my partner, my kids and alone. I don't spend much time out in public (especially in covid) and haven't attempted to chat anyone up for a very very long time, not least because my partner of decades would not be happy. I don't tend to approach strangers for a chat because I don't generally wish to talk to strangers.

This is about my belief that however much women have a right to be safe AND FEEL SAFE, no-one has a right to never be approached by strangers.

You just had to have the last word there, didn't you?

As for your google stuuf, the first bit is what we have been saying - but uyou eem to have misunderstood it

*"But I have never in my life been angry with a man for approaching me at random, so long as he treated me like a human being when he did so.

Yet, this rarely happens."

The woman writing said she has never been angry with any man who approached as though she were a human being ^yet that so rarely happens

To which you replied

I'd like to think that this was the answer.

You misunderstood ewhat she said, which is what we have been saying... we react as we do because nice approaches are so few and far between.

My own aside - you just mansplained society to us!

You said nothing that I would necessarily disagree with. Yet here you are, still repsonding directly to a woman who asked and then 'dared' you not to.

Still explaining that we women are what? Over reacting? Being illogical? What?

That men are what, not all like that? Have a right to chat? Yes, I am paraphrasing again, but you don't seem to tsee that your 'explanations' are just you doing what we have been saying we find an imposition.*

• Though that is inevitable as not only is the Mumsnet, where most of the posters are female, but is also the Women's Rights section. One of the few places we can come and discuss anything without having to take any account for men and their feelings or expectations! A space where women can come and be negative about men, any men, be rude, stereotype, make unfair, biased sometimes baseless assumptions and talk it out in relative safety.

You know, the kind of things men talk about in the street, in the pub, in our homes, to our faces. The kind of thing we are frigid, stupid, ugly, "I wouldn't fuck you anyway" etc etc etc!

@Sensateria

6 pages of women telling a man why they don’t want him to approach them in public or private message them.

Man: Blah blah blah but men have the right to approach strangers, blah blah and women have a responsibility to be welcoming.

Jesus fucking Christ.

I said - "women's responsibility to be welcoming to strangers is miniscule compared to their right to be and feel safe, but I do believe that in society we do all have some responsibility to engage in human interaction with humans around us (which is not to deny that any woman has a right to ignore any man she wants at any time for any reason)"

Why are people on the internet so incapable of reading what people write?

This is about my belief that however much women have a right to be safe AND FEEL SAFE, no-one has a right to never be approached by strangers.

As I said, still making it all about the rights.

And again, Jedi

"leave me alone" is met with "I would have edited my post if I could have - I intended to respond to your words which I have a right to do, whilst respecting the fact that you did not wish me to respond to you. I am sorry."

Do you see that you are not actually leaving me alone? Do you see that you are putting your need to be seen as A Nice Guy above my express desire to have nothing to do with you?

Honestly, I knew you would. It's all so predictable.

What will you choose to do now? Argue back about how unfair I am and you understand and you don't mean harm and you are only being friendly and you aren't like all the other men... or do as I ask?

Go on, try it, respect the wishes of a woman.

I completely get why women would not want to be approached unless necessary (excuse me, can you take those headphones off so you can hear the fire alarm!), but I also cannot help but think that it is a little arrogant and rude to assume that you have the right not to have people interract with you in public. To assume that the person tapping your shoulder has nothing to say worth hearing

It’s not that the headphone woman is assuming no men have anything interesting to say, she just doesn’t want to engage in chat. It’s the demand for chat that’s the issue and the persistence when said woman is clearly not interested in chat. The man on the radio programme simply couldn’t get it. He himself would be flattered by a “sexy lady” chatting to him, and he places himself as a male equivalent of “sexy lady”. The likelihood is he’s not. Men in general over-estimate themselves, women underestimate themselves (generalisation). So that man assumed the woman would be grateful for his attention because he was “sexy man”.

Even if he was both “sexy” and pleasant, pushing someone to talk when they clearly don’t want to is rude. Women aren’t thick. We know what men want when they indicate they want a chat and we give our careful signals that we’re not interested, but men often persist when they should simply stop.

I don’t ignore all men in public, but I am wary of their intentions. I’ve had experiences where I’ve exchanged pleasantries - just bland things about the weather or whatever - and the man has taken that as a sign of sexual interest. So it’s no wonder women are reluctant to talk to unknown men. Even if a man isn’t a danger, a brief chat or a smile can be taken as a ‘come on’. Better to be anti-social and deter most interactions.

Why are people on the internet so incapable of reading what people write Your problem is we can read, we justdon't agree with you! And have explained in some detail why your blanket statements are innappropriate to our explanations of more specific circumstances.

CuriousaboutSamphire

You misunderstood what she said, which is what we have been saying... we react as we do because nice approaches are so few and far between.

I understand completely, but I still don't think that this gives anyone in society the right to never be approached in public. What bit of this don't you follow? Do you agree or disagree? Should we bring in a law that makes approaching strangers illegal?

Still explaining that we women are what? Over reacting? Being illogical? What?

I do not think women are over-reacting or being illogical. I just think that the idea that people have the right to never be approached in public is ludicrous. Obviously women do have a right not to be approached in certain ways, and for the approach to stop if it is rejected.

"Have a right to chat?" No person has a right to have a chat with a stranger. Approaching someone is not the same as having a chat with someone. A chat involves at least 3 or 4 back and forths, an approach could well be under three words and be over.

"having to take any account for men and their feelings or expectations! " To be clear - just because I don't think you have a right to tell all strangers to never approach you in public, and just because common courtesy is a good thing most of the time, I do not believe any woman has an obligation to protect a man's feelings when a man approaches them.

@CrochetyCrochet

This is about my belief that however much women have a right to be safe AND FEEL SAFE, no-one has a right to never be approached by strangers.

As I said, still making it all about the rights.

Well it's actually about lack of rights, not rights. I do not believe anyone has a right to walk around in public in a society of humans and never face human interaction, sorry.

I think I give in!

You keep on batting back stuff that is so odd, and becoming a tad more aggressive in tone as we refuse to agree with you!

Stop repeating yourself when more than one poster ahs explained that you are applying blanket statements to situations we have explained nuance, variation!

Like

I still don't think that this gives anyone in society the right to never be approached in public. I have explained.

But you missed it, ignored it as you ask What bit of this don't you follow? Do you agree or disagree? Should we bring in a law that makes approaching strangers illegal? Which is ridiculous and has bugger all to do with anything I , or others, have said.

Approaching someone is not the same as having a chat with someone. A chat involves at least 3 or 4 back and forths, an approach could well be under three words and be over. You know when you asked if anyone is capable of reading what is actually written...

I do not believe any woman has an obligation to protect a man's feelings when a man approaches them. As was explained upthread when you said this earlier. The freedom you have to tell a man to fuck off is not one I can exercise!

Well it's actually about lack of rights, not rights. I do not believe anyone has a right to walk around in public in a society of humans and never face human interaction, sorry. Oh don't go all PA on us! You aren't sorry, you are waht? Annoyed, frustrated?

So much so you have now moved the discussion on from men being overly toward to women wanting to be bloody hermits!

As I said, female, not stupid!

@BreatheAndFocus

I completely get why women would not want to be approached unless necessary (excuse me, can you take those headphones off so you can hear the fire alarm!), but I also cannot help but think that it is a little arrogant and rude to assume that you have the right not to have people interract with you in public. To assume that the person tapping your shoulder has nothing to say worth hearing

It’s not that the headphone woman is assuming no men have anything interesting to say, she just doesn’t want to engage in chat. It’s the demand for chat that’s the issue and the persistence when said woman is clearly not interested in chat. The man on the radio programme simply couldn’t get it. He himself would be flattered by a “sexy lady” chatting to him, and he places himself as a male equivalent of “sexy lady”. The likelihood is he’s not. Men in general over-estimate themselves, women underestimate themselves (generalisation). So that man assumed the woman would be grateful for his attention because he was “sexy man”.

Even if he was both “sexy” and pleasant, pushing someone to talk when they clearly don’t want to is rude. Women aren’t thick. We know what men want when they indicate they want a chat and we give our careful signals that we’re not interested, but men often persist when they should simply stop.

I don’t ignore all men in public, but I am wary of their intentions. I’ve had experiences where I’ve exchanged pleasantries - just bland things about the weather or whatever - and the man has taken that as a sign of sexual interest. So it’s no wonder women are reluctant to talk to unknown men. Even if a man isn’t a danger, a brief chat or a smile can be taken as a ‘come on’. Better to be anti-social and deter most interactions.

I have nothing to say to that other than I agree with / understand your position entirely. Obviously I have no personal insight into being a woman (does any biological male ;-) ) but you'd have to be stupid as a man not to understand that if a woman is not making eye contact as you pass in the street there's a damn good chance that part of the reason is that she has experience of one second of eye contact being interpreted by men as "I want to sleep with you now".

I do not take the side of that man in that example. I do not believe a man has a right to a chat with a stranger, and if all they want is a chat then the headphones are a very strong hint that she's not looking for a chat. The only thing that I am arguing people have a right to do is "approach" - but that doesn't extend to approaching for a purpose that you are getting explicit signals is not wanted, and the right to approach is tied up with responsibilities to women, women who generally don't want to be approached.

If in this example the man makes a mistake and does approach, then THE ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM that they can then do is take the hint / instruction and get out of her face ASAP.

I am really not advocating that men should be going up to women for any reason very often at all.

CuriousaboutSamphire

And I should stop to (is there a way of me blocking a thread to help me resist continuing)?

Just one last word - I am a man - I need it - my fragile ego simply will not allow me not to have it.

I genuinely believe that myself and most people on this thread would agree in terms of what approaches from men are acceptable and which are not were we to sit around a screen and discuss examples played to us.

I genuinely believe the fundamental difference of opinion here is women saying "leave us alone" and me saying "I respect where you're coming from, and 99% of the time those three words sum up all men need to know... but I don't believe in anyone's right to never be approached by a stranger."

Once you start you just can't stop

I wish they would just leave us alone. I have never, even once, wanted to be approached in public.