Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

This is really interesting.

Sometimes men are honest which they often aren't with women tbh and you very the truth on how they feel.

It reminds me of when metoo came out at work.

My small team who were all blokes (that I liked and got on with) went like this in the space of maybe 2 weeks (genuine no exaggeration).

OMG that's terrible! Why haven't women ever said anything? (??!!?? erm we've gone on about little else for decades??!!?)

Hmm. That's a LOT of women. That can't be right. Some must be joining in/ exaggerating/ making it up.

WE CAN'T EVEN LOOK AT A WOMAN ANY MORE!!!

I found during that, in a very polite office, male dominated. That lots of men I was friends with and even some i didn't know so well had a very urgent need to bring it up and 'have a debate' . One where they were going to merrily devils advocate at me in my place of work about male on female sex offences...

At the coffee machine. Oh hi! So. What do you make of this Weinstein thing? I find it hard to believe he did all that. What do you think?!!!

And most of the women on here can imagine how that went!

The one who bizarrely and literally said loudish and in an emotional way about not even looking any more is s nice man who fancied himself a bit of a feminist. He scampered off looking surprised with himself after. And apologised later

So tell me Jedi.

You're walking home alone after a night out by yourself in a quiet / deserted area.

A man who is built like I dunno. The rock. Approaches you.

(Sorry about this but when men approach women we know what's what. Most men are het. So the point is, it needs to be more than likely the interest is likely to be predatory and sexual).

So a bloke.. dunno how tall you are. Say 1 foot taller than you. That's not unusual for me. He's much much stronger than you. Like proper bodybuilding max. And as for the other bit. Let's say he's wearing (unlikely but anyway) a leather harness, leather shorts, and a neon sign over his head saying I like fucking men.

Ok good.

Now. How do you feel?. Comfy? He's being friendly? He could well be. Obviously gay men are no more predatory than straight men. Which given my experience, isn't that comforting.

So come on fella.

Oh also remember you've spent your life since you were 12 being propositioned by adult men here and there, you have been regularly harassed by men who are built like the rock, sexually assaulted, followed, flashed at....

You probably won't be able to relate to that.

Anyway. Massive gay man appears and approaches you on a quiet street at 2am.

Are you comfy? Do you wonder what he wants?

Ohohoh

And don't make things up.

Because I know how men behave to each other in lots of situations.

Interested to see your response.

@CrochetyCrochet

as I do what I want.

It's this bit that's problematic, JediGnot. Think about this bit.

Maybe if you stopped doing what you wanted and thought about what women wanted and did that instead sometimes, that lovely equality you've spent a great many words talking about would start to happen.

Undersnatch

"But if you respect my experience of being harassed, and you appear to accept that it is the experience of the majority of women, why can’t you accept that a majority of women would not want unsolicited sexual attention?"

I can. We migth be talking at cross-purposes a bit here... you are assuming it was sexual attention (and are probably right)... I am talking about approaching the opposite sex more generally, not just sexually, though I get that women may well see all approaches as sexual or potentially sexual.

"It’s also about context."

Agreed.

"Would these distinctions be possible for you to get your head around? I’m interested if this is how other women would see it - possibly someone who is single wants to be approached randomly but I know I have never done, even when single. Any of the men I have been with who have respected me would not consider themselves entitled to approach me without that contextual consent, so to speak."

Makes complete sense!

I might perhaps add that surely a "genuinely good" man can approach a woman in a way that quickly shows interest and perhaps raises a smile, and throws the ball into her court, leaving her in no doubt that any further contact between them will only happen if she wants it to. If all men were capable of that how much less of an issue would it be, or would it still be tiresome? Why did I even type that - I am not claiming I have that talent, nor would I wish to suggest that many men do.

@CrochetyCrochet

So JediGnot, how would you feel if someone from this site you had never engaged with before were to PM you and comment on and ask you questions about personal details you had revealed about yourself in your posts on MN?

Would that feel a bit weird or would that feel totally OK?

And if it felt totally OK, how would it feel if they had worked out the street where you live?

It would be weird and not OK, but it would probably be pretty trivial to me due to the lack of a lifetime of grief to back it up due to my male privilege.

'I might perhaps add that surely a "genuinely good" man can approach a woman in a way that quickly shows interest and perhaps raises a smile, and throws the ball into her court, leaving her in no doubt that any further contact between them will only happen if she wants it to.'

Come on man.

I've heard this so many times.

On the way home after dark in a quiet area?
NO!
of course not FFS.

I see you enjoying mixing up messaging with approaching in public, saying hello in a bar and approaching at night when no one else around.

You know and I know it's transparent.

Also. If women don't like it they should stay off the streets and the internet because men are men and what can you do.

I don't know any man who would approach a lone woman in the middle of the night mb even the metoo argument types.

So no. Men are not just like that. The majority are fine. Not dicks.

Sadly a large minority are not. The flashers, the harrassers, the grabbers, the leerers, the assaulters.

You seem to want to behave like the latter and pretend you're the former. And blame women for it.

I find it pathetic.

'I can. We migth be talking at cross-purposes a bit here... you are assuming it was sexual attention (and are probably right)... I am talking about approaching the opposite sex more generally, not just sexually, '

You approach men like this as well?
Random men?
On the street, in the pub etc?
Assuming it's not a gay place.
What do you talk to them about?

God men are a pain in the arse. We had this on our local one. One woman complained if similar, cue many blokes telling her to leave if she didn't like it!!

Twenty eye roll emojis.

Good luck op.

@NiceGerbil

So tell me Jedi.

You're walking home alone after a night out by yourself in a quiet / deserted area.

A man who is built like I dunno. The rock. Approaches you.

(Sorry about this but when men approach women we know what's what. Most men are het. So the point is, it needs to be more than likely the interest is likely to be predatory and sexual).

So a bloke.. dunno how tall you are. Say 1 foot taller than you. That's not unusual for me. He's much much stronger than you. Like proper bodybuilding max. And as for the other bit. Let's say he's wearing (unlikely but anyway) a leather harness, leather shorts, and a neon sign over his head saying I like fucking men.

Ok good.

Now. How do you feel?. Comfy? He's being friendly? He could well be. Obviously gay men are no more predatory than straight men. Which given my experience, isn't that comforting.

So come on fella.

Oh also remember you've spent your life since you were 12 being propositioned by adult men here and there, you have been regularly harassed by men who are built like the rock, sexually assaulted, followed, flashed at....

You probably won't be able to relate to that.

Anyway. Massive gay man appears and approaches you on a quiet street at 2am.

Are you comfy? Do you wonder what he wants?

Ohohoh

And don't make things up.

Because I know how men behave to each other in lots of situations.

Interested to see your response.

Nice Gerbil

Honestly, I don't know. There might be something about him that made me simply run for it pretty damn soon after clocking him. Otherwise I may well treat him just like a normal friendly chap and have a chat!

"Oh also remember you've spent your life since you were 12 being propositioned by adult men here and there, you have been regularly harassed by men who are built like the rock, sexually assaulted, followed, flashed at" - and that changes everything - I would never try to chat up a woman (or ask her the time for that matter) in the middle of the night because I have some understanding of a typical woman's life experience.

As an aside - and I know it's not the same thing - when I was 16/17 I ended up walking through Brixton at 2am and bumping into a man who happened to be walking the same way as me... we literally walked together chatting for about 10 or 15 minutes before going our separate ways... it was only afterwards I consciously clocked he'd been holding a bit of rope or a belt between his two hands and playing with it whilst we'd been walking. To what extent I was a naive clueless fool and to what extent that is a case study in male privilege I don't know. [FFS literally 30 years later it's just occurred to me for the first time that maybe he was looking for a woman. Fuck. Saying that at one point in our walk we did pass an active crime scene and he didn't seem phased at being near the police!]

@NiceGerbil

'I can. We migth be talking at cross-purposes a bit here... you are assuming it was sexual attention (and are probably right)... I am talking about approaching the opposite sex more generally, not just sexually, '

You approach men like this as well?
Random men?
On the street, in the pub etc?
Assuming it's not a gay place.
What do you talk to them about?

I am the sort of person who might have a quick pint by myself in a rough pub and get chatting to a bloke who might be 20 years older or younger, about music or football.

I'm the sort of person who ends up chatting to some random bloke I meet on the last train home.

I'm the sort of person that will walk up to an open car window and tell the driver that I think he parks like a %&*$ because he's parked on the jagged yellow lines outside a school.

I'm the sort of person that will walk up to someone who looks familiar and ask if I know him from somewhere.

[Don't want to give much away]... I have a job that involves being outside and having local knowledge can be useful. I might find myself standing around in the street and a man walks by and I say "excuse me, do you live round here, how do you find it?" I'm more likely to approach a man than a woman because I am less likely to intimidate a man.

@NiceGerbil

'I might perhaps add that surely a "genuinely good" man can approach a woman in a way that quickly shows interest and perhaps raises a smile, and throws the ball into her court, leaving her in no doubt that any further contact between them will only happen if she wants it to.'

Come on man.

I've heard this so many times.

On the way home after dark in a quiet area?
NO!
of course not FFS.

I see you enjoying mixing up messaging with approaching in public, saying hello in a bar and approaching at night when no one else around.

You know and I know it's transparent.

Also. If women don't like it they should stay off the streets and the internet because men are men and what can you do.

I don't know any man who would approach a lone woman in the middle of the night mb even the metoo argument types.

So no. Men are not just like that. The majority are fine. Not dicks.

Sadly a large minority are not. The flashers, the harrassers, the grabbers, the leerers, the assaulters.

You seem to want to behave like the latter and pretend you're the former. And blame women for it.

I find it pathetic.

I'm clocking off now - no offence but I'm not replying to this other than to say -

I don't approach lone women in the middle of the night for any reason (though I might if I thought they were vulnerable and needed help).

I really don't get how you jump from me saying "I don't like the idea of men never being allowed to approach a woman who is a stranger" to me being a flasher.

' To what extent I was a naive clueless fool and to what extent that is a case study in male privilege I don't know. [FFS literally 30 years later it's just occurred to me for the first time that maybe he was looking for a woman. Fuck'

You don't think he was looking for a man? And just didn't feel inclined towards to for some reason?

Interesting.

I like as well that you SUDDENLY REALISE years later that this chap wasn't anxious or high or anything that he was doing that. He was looking to strangle a woman!!!! But definitely not a man. No sirrreee Bob.

Thing is clever clogs. Men don't need anything except their hands to strangle a woman in real life. In pretty much all instances.

Also what's the point of killing a woman straight off when you can overpower her etc... You again seem to have a weird view on things. You assault her first you fool!

Also give gained many points in this convo. The score card is full.

Men can't help it 10
Why shouldn't men do whatever they like 10
If women (girls) don't like it they should live in a darkened shed and never leave 10

But the raising of MENS MURDEROUS INTENT to kill random women... That's leveling up mate.

On s thread about a woman who has had a random creep DM her you've gone through men can't help it, had a brief stop at its not fair, swung through if you don't like it then remove yourself from society.

But that oh yeah random strangulars thing is epic. 100 points.

And for saying it on a thread where a woman is saying oh this bloke knows where I live and has been a bit odd... Who will 99.999999999% certainly leave her alone if she doesn't reply or whatever... You raise the idea that random men are going about armed with strangling stuff. Sometimes. That you saw. And he seemed nice but was probably going to kill a woman. Because....

He'd watched too much crime/horror USA output???? Someone certainly has.

Oh no! Did I make the man who was generous enough to share how tricky it is to be a man, sad?

Standard as well. Is there a script? It's worse in real life when you know and like them!!!

I feel bad.

Next time a stranger approaches me and some female friends and decides to join in the conversation they'd overheard about creepy men. To tell us we're being unfair.

(Which is essentially what happened here).

I shall listen politely while they explain why men are different to women. Women don't understand. When we're approached why do we think it's sexual? And striking up conversations with random women is perfectly fine as long as a 2m distance is observed ?!).
And additionally that they approach men like that all the time and when men approach them while walking home it's just friendly! Yes men do that all the time.
And if you don't like it stay at home and don't go on the internet.
Oh and once I met a man who afterwards I realised was looking to strangle a woman to death! What an anecdote eh...

Yes. I see where women have been going wrong. Gosh! Poor men. I had no idea.

If only all the women in the world behaved in s more reasonable manner. Then something unspecified would be better in an unspecified way.

Right! I'm off to sit in a semi deserted area by myself with some beers! And be very friendly to any men who approach me. Why the hell not?

I feel like I've just learnt something life changing.

Nice Gerbil

"You don't think he was looking for a man? And just didn't feel inclined towards to for some reason?"

Surely you understand male privilege and why it never crossed my mind that he was looking for a man.

"On s thread about a woman who has had a random creep DM her you've gone through men can't help it, had a brief stop at its not fair, swung through if you don't like it then remove yourself from society.

But that oh yeah random strangulars thing is epic. 100 points."

You were the one who brought up a 7 ft gay bodybuilder in the middle of the night, not me! My story came from that.

"Oh no! Did I make the man who was generous enough to share how tricky it is to be a man, sad?"

I am making the point that I understand male privilege - that I can walk down the street at 2 am, I might have been seconds from death (probably wasn't), and it has never ever played on my mind. That is me acknowledging privilege, not the reverse.

Take care

I am female but I'm on facebook under a male name. I have never got an unsolicited PM or a bad comment.

My mum is on facebook under her name. She also has a photo that shows she is elderly. She gets PMs or comments most days (which fortunately she finds hilarious and won't be taken in).

But I'm sure it is all people want to make friends.

@JediGnot

Nice Gerbil

"You don't think he was looking for a man? And just didn't feel inclined towards to for some reason?"

Surely you understand male privilege and why it never crossed my mind that he was looking for a man.

"On s thread about a woman who has had a random creep DM her you've gone through men can't help it, had a brief stop at its not fair, swung through if you don't like it then remove yourself from society.

But that oh yeah random strangulars thing is epic. 100 points."

You were the one who brought up a 7 ft gay bodybuilder in the middle of the night, not me! My story came from that.

"Oh no! Did I make the man who was generous enough to share how tricky it is to be a man, sad?"

I am making the point that I understand male privilege - that I can walk down the street at 2 am, I might have been seconds from death (probably wasn't), and it has never ever played on my mind. That is me acknowledging privilege, not the reverse.

Take care

Lol come on.

You weren't seconds from death. Most men are fine.

What you are determined to ignore is the difference almost always in size and strength between men and women and the capacity for violence. Especially sexual violence.

You say you understand male privilege. You also say why shouldn't men DM random women. And if women don't like it then stay off social media.

Sounds kosher!

Good night to you too.

I personally would create a post on the app asking people how they deal with unwanted messages. He will most likely see that post and get the message. Admin will definitely see the post and probably contact you for more information

@JediGnot

And one last thing - sorry you are going through this - I do understand (at least partly) why you are uncomfortable and a little concerned. Good luck

What a man on an app should do is post a message on the open forum and request permission to private message. He should not assume he can just send a private message.

Why should a woman post a fake picture, why she she have to hide herself at all.men should just be respectful and not bomb women's private messages.

I play a word game, my user name is 'dontmessagemeever' yet multiple times a day men message with creepy sexual message. For extra context, on the game my profile picture is a tree, and my location set as timbuckto

That’s what I planned to do Halz, but then realised that it was actually really easy for people to find out my actual home address, not just the street, and I just decided to bow out without risking it. Earlier I was grappling with feeling confident enough to challenge but once I found out how open it is, and listened to Jedi’s perspective that many men are likely to think they are entitled to PM women they don’t know, I have changed my mind. I’ll find another hill to die on.

Ps omg Binglebong. I am not on FB and never have been which perhaps explains my naivety about this stuff, but your mum. I just despair sometimes and need to remind myself that not all men are rank. Shall we have a sweepstake on the percentages to cheer ourselves up?

I play a word game, my user name is 'dontmessagemeever' yet multiple times a day men message with creepy sexual message. For extra context, on the game my profile picture is a tree, and my location set as timbuckto

My first response to this was to laugh but - WTAF. No words.

Oh OP. So what are you going to do?

He honestly was talking bollocks. Surely you know that? I mean utter drivel. He was here for whatever his own reasons were, nothing to do with you.

If you don't want to do the most preferred option- oh you accidentally PM me here's the answers...

Please get you dh to do the other one!

Neither of those are confrontational or aggressive in any way. At all.

He was in the wrong. Totally. Yes it was creepy.

Are you gonna ignore/ block? Or what?

I just love the idea of you saying oh my DH is the one who knows most about that. And then you and DH thinking up 2 or 3 boring as fuck messages about your area every day. I can give you tips from my family if you like?

Have you heard they might be temporarily suspending the XXX bus route? Does that impact anyone you know?
Apparently they're going to be looking at the sewers under the pub! What do you make of that?
Etc etc etc

What are you going to do?

I think there's a broken paving stone near the top of the road. The man from number 13 nearly tripped? Have you seen it?

He deserves it if you can be arsed.

Sadly. Nothing we can do in the short term to change men's behaviour. But the earlier poster was wrong. Most are fine.

And this one was creepy full stop.

Ah you maybe missed my earlier post Gerbil, I just deactivated the app without responding to anyone. Once I realised he could easily work out my full address then the sense of accomplishment of calling him out was not outweighed by the unease.

The answer is men never approach women under any circumstance (I find that VERY difficult to accept, but maybe that's my problem), or the answer is that men and women vote in sufficient numbers together that a government is formed that forces real change.

What change can the government enforce that you would accept, since you don't think men should just stop approaching women?
No one needs to vote for 'stop approaching women'. Just do it. But you wont because you dont see it as harassment.

What you don't realise is that its not just you. You aren't the only one to approach her today, you have no idea how wearing it is to be going about your business and dealing with men trying it on.

It wouldn't cross my mind in a million years to ask publicly first for permission to private message.
But that is what men should do. And they should accept 'no thanks' as an answer and move on.
They should also not leave threatening messages if they don't get an answer within 3 minutes of posting.

There is such a simple solution. Women who are interested will approach you.

@Undersnatch

Ah you maybe missed my earlier post Gerbil, I just deactivated the app without responding to anyone. Once I realised he could easily work out my full address then the sense of accomplishment of calling him out was not outweighed by the unease.

Thanks OP! I went off on one a bit when I read our friends posts.

Good move.

Anyway those things I imagine are shit anyway. I got invited to a Facebook one and it's all about missing cats. Not that I don't care about missing cats but you know. Not for me.

Stick to real life is much easier! For local stuff anyway!

'The answer is men never approach women under any circumstance (I find that VERY difficult to accept, but maybe that's my problem),'

This is the exact thing I wrote my earlier post about

We can't even look at a woman any more!!!!!

I mean FFS