Response to men’s creepiness

[Undersnatch]

Joined a neighbourhood app yesterday and by today I have a private message from a man commenting that he noticed where I live and asking questions about it. Other people had said hello, welcome on the timeline but he felt the need to send a private message.

It’s a long time since I had unwanted male attention really and got me thinking about various things. I feel like I want to call it out, give feedback - a la ‘it’s creepy to get a message from a stranger commenting on where I live’. But then that self doubt of, is it? Is my barometer off because I’ve had my share of shit male behaviour over the years?

DH initially felt sorry for him when I said I may respond directly and wondered if he may have a learning disability . It’s the be kind thing innit? Don’t be direct in saying ‘you are making me uncomfortable’. But the guy now knows my face and street name. So maybe it is too risky to be direct?

I could just leave and chalk it up to experience.

What do you think?

To a large extent my simple male brain finds it hard to know how to respond to what is clearly a pretty universal female take on this other than one extreme or another - never approach women under any circumstances or try to be as nice and un-threatening as possible as I do what I want.

Please, on behalf of women everywhere, I beg you... never approach women under any circumstances. Now you know

Undersnatch

I agree with your first paragraph completely.

"I joined the app because I want to have a closer community. I want to get to know local people, help them out, be neighbourly. What you have written implies there is something wrong about that (there is, because male behaviour puts me at risk)."

It seems like you are wishing to be neighbourly, and that needs personal interaction with people physically close to you, and that you know that in the real world and online that involves added risk to you. We need a better society. And the app needs to discourage real photos and not publish precise street names.

"So I need to avoid public spaces if I don’t want random men I don’t know speaking to me? Is this what you are suggesting? Why did he PM me and not ask on the open forum if he was only interested in chat? I do think I need to leave the app, just like I need to avoid places where men like you think they are entitled to conversation with me."

Are you saying that men should never approach women unless given explicit consent first?

It wouldn't cross my mind in a million years to ask publicly first for permission to private message. I struggle to see the difference between public and private other than one is intended for a more limited audience.

I don't think I am entitled to a conversation - I think I am entitled to approach, just as you are entitled to make it clear that you wish me to back off.

"He was asking questions about a park I live close to. Seeing as the public forum is filled with people who live next to the park why would he select one woman to ask when he could canvass the opinions of many - if he really wanted to know. "

There was no need for that message to be private - unless he's looking for a friend or (more likely) partner. The problem here is not his approach, rather it is that you don't feel safe enough to tell him to get lost with no fear of repercussions. The latter won't change without society changing, which leaves the solution being society changing (equality) or men never approaching women... neither which seem that realistic.

"I cannot give you a definitive rule book, however put simply, many men present a risk to women. Many don’t and when you are not it may feel frustrating to be judged. But with respect, you are coming across as a man who thinks he has the right to mock/dismiss a woman’s boundaries and suggest that if she doesn’t want to be approached by unknown men then she should stay out of sight. This makes me uncomfortable and I think you should go and think deeply about what you have said here."

I don't think women are obliged to welcome unknown men approaching them, and I don't think women should stay out of sight. But neither do I think that women have a right to never be approached by strangers, nor men have no right to approach women, ever.

Meeting the public is an occupational hazard of being in public, receiving messages is an occupational hazard of being on apps that allow you to receive messages.

If I am right at the very least men need to learn to read the signs and back the fuck off politely and fast if requested or hinted.

I haven't got a point here really, I'm certainly not trying to win an argument or deny your experience... but I just cannot get my head around the idea that no men should ever approach a female stranger in public or by pm.

@AssassinatedBeauty

There will not be equality if men like you, who self describe as "nice", are unwilling to make any changes whatsoever because the patriarchy benefits you. As you say, men who are more openly misogynist definitely aren't going to voluntarily change. If so-called "nice" men object to being asked politely to do something as trivial as refrain from sending unsolicited PMs then we will get nowhere fast.

You seem to be mixing two things up - men changing their behaviour (voting habits?) to fight the patriarchy, and men changing their behaviour to minimize the harm caused to women in a patriarchal society.

as I do what I want.

It's this bit that's problematic, JediGnot. Think about this bit.

Maybe if you stopped doing what you wanted and thought about what women wanted and did that instead sometimes, that lovely equality you've spent a great many words talking about would start to happen.

Not mixing up. Expecting both things. You are offering neither.

@CrochetyCrochet

We live in a disgusting patriarchy. The answer is equality.

So how do you propose to achieve that?

Your stance appears to be that it's up to women to make fundamental changes in society by complaining more but nice men shouldn't have to do anything other than carry on, because ...well, they are nice, and nasty men won't take any notice anyway.

TLDR: It's up to women to try and change things (But hey, ladies it's not gonna work).

Fab.

No, I think my point is more that the problem is NOT strangers talking and PMing. The problem is that in the real world as it is today women very often do not want such an approach, because their experience of the world is such that the approach is threatening.

The answer is men never approach women under any circumstance (I find that VERY difficult to accept, but maybe that's my problem), or the answer is that men and women vote in sufficient numbers together that a government is formed that forces real change. If I knew how to get the majority in this backward, intellectually-stunted, dishonest, corrupt, increasingly-fascist country to vote for greater equality for women believe me we'd have a very different government right now.

but I just cannot get my head around the idea that no men should ever approach a female stranger in public or by pm.

Fine. Just know that 9 times out of 10 women will find it creepy. And will resent you for doing it.

Dangerous men don’t come with signs, so we can’t tell if you are one or not. Unsolicited approaches make us think you lean in towards the ‘dangerous’ camp.

Know that 9 times out of 19 unsolicited contact is unwelcomed by women, and unwanted.

9 times out of 10.

Take your street name off the app! I can't believe anyone would advertise what street they live on to complete strangers. I've been stalked before so maybe I'm a bit more aware than others but this to me sounds like absolute madness.

Message him back and say you prefer to chat on the board as opposed to privately, then tell him you and your HUSBAND very much like the area. And don't talk to him again

I downloaded Neighbourhood and left within 24hrs,including emailing the company to remove all my data as is my right. It was dreadful - three men messaging me all winks and small talk and it had my road on the display. It felt very uncomfortable and unsafe.

@SaturdayRocks

but I just cannot get my head around the idea that no men should ever approach a female stranger in public or by pm.

Fine. Just know that 9 times out of 10 women will find it creepy. And will resent you for doing it.

Dangerous men don’t come with signs, so we can’t tell if you are one or not. Unsolicited approaches make us think you lean in towards the ‘dangerous’ camp.

Know that 9 times out of 19 unsolicited contact is unwelcomed by women, and unwanted.

Understood. FWIW I am in a relationship, have been for ages, and really don't spend much time at all wandering up to strange women or sending unsolicited messages.

I appreciate your honesty, Jedi, even if I disagree with most of what you are saying totally. And I appreciate the clarification that you respect my experience. I get that you think it is unworkable for men to not approach female strangers.

But if you respect my experience of being harassed, and you appear to accept that it is the experience of the majority of women, why can’t you accept that a majority of women would not want unsolicited sexual attention?

It’s also about context. Many men (and women) will say hello to me as I walk around the park or in my local community, and I feel not a bit of threat. It’s respectful and equal and apparent that there is no agenda.

It’s where the sexual interest comes in (not itself wrong of course) - like you said - this man likely only messaged me privately in relation to that - then men need to learn about boundaries and adjust their behaviour. Do not private message anyone on an app/website that is nothing to do with that. Don’t approach women when they are in the street or supermarket or somewhere that has nothing to do with dating.

When in spaces that have a potential connection to dating - dating apps, social engagements, pubs etc - then your ‘very least’ of reading the signs comes in.

Would these distinctions be possible for you to get your head around? I’m interested if this is how other women would see it - possibly someone who is single wants to be approached randomly but I know I have never done, even when single. Any of the men I have been with who have respected me would not consider themselves entitled to approach me without that contextual consent, so to speak.

So, would you be happy to receive unsolicited SMS saying "Hi. How r u?" when you are enjoying chatting on the main site?
Would you wonder why, or find it strange?

Sorry, that was to JediGnot.

Not caught up

Just read this

'Now obviously a polite man will - say - avoid approaching a lone woman at night in a quiet place because that is obviously highly likely to be intimidating. Obviously a man should speak from 2 metres away and not get right in your face. Obviously he should accept your lack of interest in any sort of communication if you are not interested in any sort of communication, and move away promptly to ensure that you don't feel intimidated. But I simply do not buy into the idea that approaching strangers in public is wrong.'

Jesus fucking Christ.

Never ever ever approach a woman who is walking home alone and is in a lonely place at night!!!

you know that. Come on.

You know that she will be scared witless.

You know that, I know you do. If you see it as your right to do that somehow. That's it's an imposition for society/ women to push the outrageous idea that a woman walking alone at night in an empty residential area or whatever is not going to be in any way whatsoever anything but freaked the fuck out to have a man approach her.

I don't know what to even say. Men who do this know what they're doing. It's a big club with a much larger number of men in it than women would like...

And you want women to engage with you on your points? Presumably in a way that doesn't assume that you're ideas are... Very very discomforting.

Glad you liked some of my very late night thoughts OP!

Group innocent accidental DM thing seems to get a popular vote.

I still like the idea of saying my DH knows better and getting dh to contact him and go on and on in boring detail and message him like 3 times a day. Saying stuff like. I heard they're going to reslab the pavement near number 56!!! Have you heard that? The council reslabbing program has serious issues in my view... . Even better link really long boring articles and DH says read this!!! I'm really excited to hear your views

@CrochetyCrochet

as I do what I want.

It's this bit that's problematic, JediGnot. Think about this bit.

Maybe if you stopped doing what you wanted and thought about what women wanted and did that instead sometimes, that lovely equality you've spent a great many words talking about would start to happen.

Well, what did "as I do what I want" mean in this context?

It means I live my life and do my thing, which is precisely what women should feel safe enough to do as well. It doesn't mean taking no account of the feelings of others. I really don't spend much if any time approaching women in public.

The problem here is much more about women not having freedom, not that men do. IMHO.

Obviously women would be more free if they never received unwanted male attention, and they'd be happier too. But it wouldn't in itself suddenly leave women thinking nothing of walking 3 miles home half drunk at midnight, or feeling that they're able to put their full name and address on a public website as part of a drive to help their neighbours.

Depending on what the person said, I would just message back in a way that was polite but didn't particularly encourage further discussion. Usually if they are not being creepy they get the message.

The thing about NextDoor is that it is meant to connect people, in a fairly personal way - they know who you are and so on and for many people it's a way to actually try and get to know the people, so you could even talk to them in person. So by joining you are going to see who people are and where they live and there is kind of an assumption there that you are ok with that, and for some that will mean they see you as being open to friendly overtures.

It's probably not a good choice if you really want to be pretty anonymous in your neighbourhood.

Well, thanks to Jedi’s input further underlining to me that men like these are not going to change anytime soon, I decided that my feeling of responsibility to educate my ‘neighbour’ was misplaced. I also found a facility to search for neighbours on the app and while I had it set not to show my house number, it showed me which neighbours are on the app, so it’s really not safe since men are using it in this way.

So while I like your DH pavement article ideas Gerbil! I’ve just deactivated it. Thanks to all who fed in what a dodgy app it is. I can ‘let this one go’ now as discussed earlier but still feeling majorly depressed about the wider situation with entitled male behaviour.

That’s the problem though smokedduck - I don’t see a PM like that as a friendly overture. I see it as ‘I like the look of you, and I know where you live’. Probably I am naive, but I didn’t expect that. I don’t want to be anonymous in my neighbourhood, not at all. I just don’t want come ons from men I don’t know. I don’t think that should be too much to ask.

I get this a lot in a ‘Wild Swimming’ Facebook group, constant PM’s always from men, never from women, not once. It’s everything from asking ‘innocent’ questions which I’ve already clearly answered in my original post or answered in the comments, to full on creepy leery invasion of my personal inbox.

I do generally go down the route of publicly calling them out/answering them on the Facebook page these days. I will tag them in a comment under my post “Dave Smith, I’m not sure why you’ve PM’d me, all the info you need about this swimming spot is in this post, please don’t private message me again”. I screenshot any openly creepy messages and report to admin. 9 times out of 10 it turns out the man is already on his final warning from admin and he gets removed from the group.

It’s exhausting. Men need to know that unless it’s some kind of dating site, or women have explicitly stated “feel free to PM me” they just need to stay the fuck out of their inbox.

I would much rather never be approached by a man than have to put up with random creeps.

There are many ways to meet people who WANT to meet someone. When I’m out and about I usually have shit to do and I don’t care if some guy wants to talk to me. I’m not your friend, I don’t know you, why do I owe random men a chance to shoot their shot? I don’t need to hear the sales pitch to decide I’m not looking to buy.

So JediGnot, how would you feel if someone from this site you had never engaged with before were to PM you and comment on and ask you questions about personal details you had revealed about yourself in your posts on MN?

Would that feel a bit weird or would that feel totally OK?

And if it felt totally OK, how would it feel if they had worked out the street where you live?

@MorriseysGladioli

So, would you be happy to receive unsolicited SMS saying "Hi. How r u?" when you are enjoying chatting on the main site? Would you wonder why, or find it strange?

I might find it strange and wonder why. I might be marginally flattered whilst also being completely disinterested.

Now, if I was on a website and it was posted by a 6'4" gay body-builder who knew my street and face I'd react much more similarly to how a woman might react... but even then my reaction would be much less visceral for obvious reasons (lack of years of conditioning to be fearful).

I would much rather never be approached by a man than have to put up with random creeps.

This. I would happily never ever receive an unsolicited private message from a man ever again.