Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

And I agree withProf Stock. I'd like to see trans people owning the "trans" part of their identity, rather than the "gender" part. And recognising and celebrating they are trans men/women, not men/women. Different and valuable for the difference.

@QuentinBunbury

Yes agree but it's percolated down so lots of people who are interested in social justice issues will say that "T**Fs are spouting hate" and that's what drives the media. If women were kinder this would all be OK etc. Whereas that shows it's mens attitudes that are more of a blocker, yet noone is berating men to Be Kind.

Yes I see what you are saying

@StrangeLookingParasite

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

No, the reality is that they are a male individual who has had surgery and takes hormones to give the appearance of a female person.
It is not possible to change sex.

You are missing my point

No, I don't think I am. I just don't agree with the premise.

@QuentinBunbury

Personally I don't think we should be forcing people to have invasive surgery, lifelong medical dependence and all the potential risks of that to "prove" they are trans enough. I think most of the general public are too squeamish to really look into what "gender confirmation surgery" really entails - they just see it as that person must be really trans to go through that.

However, I'd like to see trans people recognise that sex based provision is there for good reason and respect that. Unfortunately very little of that happens.

I agree 100 %

Medical intervention is suitable for a tiny tiny amount of people who identify as trans.
Particularly at the moment with this trend amongst young girls.

Sex based provision again yes I agree definitely needs protecting.
Slightly hypocritical of me though as I have used female toilets in the dim and distant past. But times have changed and sadly due to this self id business these spaces do need protecting

@StrangeLookingParasite

No, I don't think I am. I just don't agree with the premise.

The premises of how 90% of people would define changing sex ?

'Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.
It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception'

I suspect, going how public opinion is slowly changing from 'why won't everyone just be kind?' to 'hang on, women are being threatened with being jailed for stating biological facts?' that the situation is the opposite to what you say.

Despite the mantra of TWAW, the general public will have considered this as a social thing and are rather taken aback when they realise that they are expected to believe that humans can actually change sex.

You talk about echo chambers but away from the media and metropolitan cities and settings (Universities and the like), the ordinary person on the street won't believe this. They also generally haven't been following the debate and when it starts impacting on day to day life (as it has started to), then they start to realise the institutional capture and scope of this whole thing.

Slightly hypocritical of me though as I have used female toilets in the dim and distant past.
Thing is though, I don't think most women care about a trans woman doing that. What we want is to be able to challenge creepy people without being accused of a hate crime.

Toilet use was not a problem, which is precisely why TRAs focus on it, because it makes women with concerns look unreasonable and is the thin end of a wedge to end single sex spaces altogether.

It makes me so cross.

I think there are different kinds of trans people (for want of a better word). There are those who, like Imasoulman on this thread, who just want to live their lives in peace and at heart (I think) do accept that they are transwomen and not women in the true sense.
But there are others who will stop at nothing less than being accepted as a full woman in every sphere of life no matter whose rights or feelings they have to trample over to get that validation.
There are those who actually question the existence of biological sex and come up with every dubious reason under the sun why sex is a 'spectrum' (even though the VAST majority of the general population do align with their biology and only 0.018% have a DSD) As if being a woman is nothing more than a 'feeling'. It is these arguments that annoy women.
I would argue that in the 'real world' most people do NOT accept that sex change is possible. I'm sorry to disagree with you but my 13 year old daughter knows that biological sex change is a fantasy. It's a dangerous path to go down teaching young people that anything more than outward appearance can be changed and I think you are not giving enough credit to the 'average' person.
Having said all that, I wish more trans people held some of the beliefs that you seem to, because I really think the TRA movement is doing SO much damage to trans people who just want to get on with their lives. I would NEVER presume to know what a trans person goes through in their life but I would never expect a male person to ever know what it is to be female. It is impossible for either of us to know.

I don't think most women care about a trans woman doing that.

Oddly enough, the videos from JY now JS and the ones where lauded transwomen activists are shooting selfies or videos of themselves performing sex acts there without any criticism as to how this might make other users feel unsafe - This along with other actions prompted a reconsideration such that it has hardened and retracted my boundaries.

Well quite embarassing I feel the same. Which is why I said it was not a problem. It is now because 1) TRAs have relentlessly focussed on it and 2) various trans people have posted videos of being in toilets for sexual purposes. So now I also feel differently about it. If it was " I just need to pee" I couldn't care less

'Feeling like a woman' can never make sense. I've been a woman for decades and have no idea. I know how it feels to be me. Thats it. I don't know how other women feel - how could I? - and 'feeling like a woman' implies the existence of a universal 'woman feeling ' which may, or may not, exist..I have zero idea how men feel. Maybe they feel just like me?

I can understand that some people wish they had been born the opposite sex. But this isn't the same as claiming you know how all members of the opposite sex feel. This can only ever be a projection of how you think it may feel to be a member of the opposite sex.

Personally I have never

I think many women did have a problem with transsexuals using our toilets but didn’t feel safe enough, or were too cowed by female socialisation, to say so. It was also a very rare problem so probably most just shrugged it off as a one-time unpleasant experience. Transsexuals then seem to have taken this as a sign that they ‘passed’ and/or were welcome, rather than as what it is - a display of the power differential between men and women.

We stopped going out to Manchester gay village because the ladies toilets were always full of drag queens and I just didn't feel comfortable there. Voted with our feet.

I have lots of friends, both transwomen and transmen, some of whom have fully transitioned some at all different stages, some who never will and a one who is de transitioning.

"Transition" here means what?

@Campervan69

Sophoclesthefox '76 was the long hot summer.

Star wars came out in '77 and it was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We all got commemorative coins.

I got commemorative knickers which had red white and blue stripey elastic. I thought I was the bees knees

Wow! Nice... did you have a street party? Down my street we were such a community growing up. All kids playing out together. Its not like that anymore sadly.

No, I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real

We all have feelings which are very real to us. that does not necessarily translate to the world or people beyond, though. We can be whoever we imagine in the privacy of our own mind.

Saying that people change sex by having surgery is like saying people literally make themselves younger by getting a facelift and filers. They now appear to be the opposite sex or younger, but they are not in fact the opposite sex or younger.

Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception

I don't think that is true. Most people will be familiar with the term 'transexual'. They will picture an older male who has had surgery and taken cross sex hormones; and who dresses 'as a woman'. But they will also be aware that this is a surface transformation only. Most trans people are quite conspicuous. Everyone knows the score.

@WeeBisom

Saying that people change sex by having surgery is like saying people literally make themselves younger by getting a facelift and filers. They now appear to be the opposite sex or younger, but they are not in fact the opposite sex or younger.

Exactly this.

People believe they talk to the Devil. Does that mean the Devil exists?

@Justhadathought

Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception

I don't think that is true. Most people will be familiar with the term 'transexual'. They will picture an older male who has had surgery and taken cross sex hormones; and who dresses 'as a woman'. But they will also be aware that this is a surface transformation only. Most trans people are quite conspicuous. Everyone knows the score.

Not really sure of your point here ?

@WeeBisom

Saying that people change sex by having surgery is like saying people literally make themselves younger by getting a facelift and filers. They now appear to be the opposite sex or younger, but they are not in fact the opposite sex or younger.

No one has said any different

Just jumping down this may have been covered to make the point again from another pp.

The whole general public believe a person has changed sex if they've had surgery.

That not quite true- I think the general person thinks if someone has gone through something so serious and massive and irreversible then they really are committed to it. That so few do it and it's so huge that ok maybe just for you ok then.

It's a generosity to s person who obviously means it and obviously is really pretty vulnerable because you wouldn't do that to yourself if you weren't.

The other thing that ties in here that the connection between penis being so vital to men and what they are etc. Men are obsessed with their dicks. Have been through history. Unmanned as an old word for castration etc. The term manhood. All that. A man without a cock is seen as missing a fundamental part of the whole focus of maleness- they are a non man. They can go with the other non men.

Tied to that is that a lot of the objection to males in female spaces is risk of sexual assault. For men it comes back to the property/ my woman/ and other men having sex with them. (Yes I know it's rape im talking this real deep seated insecurity since forever). No dick? No probs.

I think it's a mistake to say that's the point as which the general public say yes they've changed sex. It's actually the point at which they say. Well ok if you've gone that far then alright.