Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

There's no doubt that a substantial chunk of the population still consider 'sex change surgery' to exist and believe that a male who has had their penis inverted and who presents as a woman is as close to a woman as makes no difference

"There's no doubt" when asked for a source = I have no source but I'd like this to be true.

I don't want it to be true. However, polls indicate that people's opinions of transwomen in women's spaces alter depending on whether the transwoman is said to have had genital surgery or not. I don't agree with that viewpoint myself. Do you think I shouldn't ever mention something I don't agree with?

However, polls indicate that people's opinions of transwomen in women's spaces alter depending on whether the transwoman is said to have had genital surgery or not.

So there is a source? Could you share it, please?

I was going to ask for a source as well.

Often the questions are very vague, and even then the answers are taken to mean something else.

This 2020 Yougov poll is what I'm thinking of. The colours used in the reporting are misleading but it's possible to work out what it actually says if you look closely.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

As a non transitioned trans woman I have a pretty good insight into all this. So I fall into the category you mentioned and consider myself to be a transwoman

Thank you for your reply. Could I therefore presume that in most cases you might agree with Professor Stock?

@heathspeedwell

Thy micturitions are to me, As plurdled gabbleblotchits, On a lurgid bee,

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

I was asked to explain how I believe it is possible to change sex (at least how the average person would define that) I the question I asked, the one you replied to, was how can someone change sex and /or what does that mean to you? Nothing about some imagined average person. And you didn't answer. You gave a self referencing line that makes no sense at all

As a non transitioned trans woman I have a pretty good insight into all this. As smeone who has seen one male freind transition, fully medically, and hbeen the every day support for awoman who transitioned, I suspect I have a better awareness than you do. I can certainly tell you all about the psychological trauma each surgery brings, the hopes, the memotinal pain, the disappointments, the compromises.

So I fall into the category you mentioned and consider myself to be a transwoman. Except, as you keep on telling us, you haven't transitioned! So , whilst you say you decry the Stonewall Umbrella, you pretty much rely on it.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I was asked to explain how I believe it is possible to change sex (at least how the average person would define that) I the question I asked, the one you replied to, was how can someone change sex and /or what does that mean to you? Nothing about some imagined average person. And you didn't answer. You gave a self referencing line that makes no sense at all

As a non transitioned trans woman I have a pretty good insight into all this. As smeone who has seen one male freind transition, fully medically, and hbeen the every day support for awoman who transitioned, I suspect I have a better awareness than you do. I can certainly tell you all about the psychological trauma each surgery brings, the hopes, the memotinal pain, the disappointments, the compromises.

So I fall into the category you mentioned and consider myself to be a transwoman. Except, as you keep on telling us, you haven't transitioned! So , whilst you say you decry the Stonewall Umbrella, you pretty much rely on it.

Wow, how arrogant of you to suggest that you have better awareness of being trans than a transwoman who has been living with this for 5 decades.

I have lots of friends, both transwomen and transmen, some of whom have fully transitioned some at all different stages, some who never will and a one who is de transitioning.

I have sat with people after surgery, seen the pain they go through.
Seen and actually felt the despair of knowing that transition will never happen.

I have lost friends, bloody good friends who were so lost they took their own life's.

I have lived with being humiliated, bullied, beaten, sexualy assaulted and ostracised.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be trans.

You know perfectly well from other threads that I think the whole stonewall thing is incredibly harmful and just feeds division.

I don't rely on anything or anyone to define myself or my friends, I have a mind and I make my own decisions.

It is possible to change your sex to a point that the average person would define as having changed sex.
I understand that you don't accept that and that's fine, I guess if you live in an echo chamber it's hard to listen to other opinions.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be trans.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be a woman.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

Well that level of insight has certainly convinced me of your argument (I'm not actually sure what your argument is, but I'm sure it's as well-reasoned, mature & reasonable as your post)

Wow, how arrogant of you to suggest that you have better awareness of being trans than a transwoman who has been living with this for 5 decades.

And yet males who identify as women see fit to tell women they have real insight and understanding of the female experience and claim it for themselves, all the whilebehaving in ways that look very un-female to most women. How curious.

@OldCrone

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be trans.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be a woman.

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

Who is this "average person" who believes that human beings can change sex?

Also, I would never be "arrogant" enough to believe I understand how transwomen feel. If only that were reciprocal.

@BettyFilous

Wow, how arrogant of you to suggest that you have better awareness of being trans than a transwoman who has been living with this for 5 decades.

And yet males who identify as women see fit to tell women they have real insight and understanding of the female experience and claim it for themselves, all the whilebehaving in ways that look very un-female to most women. How curious.

Not me !
I have never claimed anything nor asked for validation or anything else.
I just want to live my life without constantly having to explain and defend myself

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

So we agree then? I have no idea what it's like to be trans and you have no idea what it's like to be a woman.

@OldCrone

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

So we agree then? I have no idea what it's like to be trans and you have no idea what it's like to be a woman.

No, I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real

@HouseOfGoldandBones

Who is this "average person" who believes that human beings can change sex?

Also, I would never be "arrogant" enough to believe I understand how transwomen feel. If only that were reciprocal.

Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.
It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception

That's a really interesting report permanent. Not least because it shows men are a lot more rejecting of "trans rights" yet its feminists that are being blamed for this in public discourse.

No, I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real

We've had this discussion before. Yes, you know how you feel. Yes, that feeling is real. You are unhappy that you were born male. You don't 'feel like a woman' because 'woman' isn't a feeling and you're not a woman.

@QuentinBunbury

That's a really interesting report permanent. Not least because it shows men are a lot more rejecting of "trans rights" yet its feminists that are being blamed for this in public discourse.

It's stonewall and TRA's that are causing all this angst and discourse

Yes agree but it's percolated down so lots of people who are interested in social justice issues will say that "T**Fs are spouting hate" and that's what drives the media. If women were kinder this would all be OK etc.
Whereas that shows it's mens attitudes that are more of a blocker, yet noone is berating men to Be Kind.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be a woman.

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

I am going to have a stab at this. I may be talking tosh, of course.

When you look at other lives - images, films, written descriptions, imagination, novels - your inner image of yourself places you in the imaginative, social or pictorial category of women. Not all or maybe even most women, but ‘womanhood’ as it appears to be.

Does any of that make sense?

(As a comparison in miniature:
My whole inner being revolts at compressing myself into some traditionally feminine roles or styles. If I look at myself in makeup and a ‘pretty’ outfit, although objectively I can see that it looks acceptable, it’s so very ‘not me’ that I feel utterly compelled to wipe it off and change.)

Humans are their bodies, but also products of their culture, literature, history and surroundings. I don’t blame those who try to blend into the view of ‘woman’ in current culture rather than alter it - as long as the actual needs and wishes of women are protected, and we aren’t forced to repeat lies.

Personally I don't think we should be forcing people to have invasive surgery, lifelong medical dependence and all the potential risks of that to "prove" they are trans enough. I think most of the general public are too squeamish to really look into what "gender confirmation surgery" really entails - they just see it as that person must be really trans to go through that.

However, I'd like to see trans people recognise that sex based provision is there for good reason and respect that. Unfortunately very little of that happens.

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

No, the reality is that they are a male individual who has had surgery and takes hormones to give the appearance of a female person.
It is not possible to change sex.