Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

Did Imasoulman ever come back to clarify what they meant by:

"Fully Transitioned - After surgery"

Is that any surgery? So appendix removed, mole removal, varicose veins stripped...

Or any surgery whatsoever to make them outwardly resemble women more... silicone implants, hairline plugs, reshaping of the face....

Or just the inversion of the penis?

Out of interest.

Yes, people talk about men having a "sex change" operation. They mean a man has had his penis removed.
That's as far as it goes. "Change sex" is a euphemism for penis removal, nothing more.

I had a Purdey haircut in 1977. I was assigned female at birth and I became the owner of a new food processor during the first lockdown. I actually used it this evening to make a Sambal for my Gousto meal (feel free to contact me for a code to get 60% of your first box).

You're a blender and so's your Mum.

I also didn't have a haircut in 1977, as I hadn't been born yet.

I've been inspired to name change

@Cleanandpress

Yes, people talk about men having a "sex change" operation. They mean a man has had his penis removed. That's as far as it goes. "Change sex" is a euphemism for penis removal, nothing more.

Absolutely. Some trans women are also content to have orchidectomy only (removal of the testes). Does this 'count' or is it the penis that is the deal breaker? What about those who never have surgery? Are they not enough of a trans women? Are they only half of one if they have a boob job but no genital surgery?

A penile amputation or inversion does not mean a man has changed sex.
Cross sex synthetic hormones means that someone is taking cross sex synthetic hormones. It doesn't mean they have changed sex.

Balls. Worked this time

Balls. Worked this time

Mentioning balls on a thread about transwomen is literal violence. Please stop

@WoolOfBat

cleanandpress, does that mean that a man who had an accident (or the penis cut off like that Bobbit guy) changes sex according to these people?

I am trying to understand.

What are you trying to understand? If people think operation/accident/a Bobbit are all synonyms? You might be able to answer your own question there.

Imasoulman
In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

Do you have a source for that, please?

( BTW, it's whether. A wether is a castrated ram. I only mention this because it seems somehow pertinent to your post.)

There's no doubt that a substantial chunk of the population still consider 'sex change surgery' to exist and believe that a male who has had their penis inverted and who presents as a woman is as close to a woman as makes no difference. It would be silly to deny that tbh, and although I don't agree with that view in factual terms, it does at least mark a boundary.

John Wayne Bobbit had it reattached I believe. Now HE'S a real piece of shit.

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex. You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

I remember reading about "sex changes" when I was a young teenager.

Being quite smart, I was a bit flustered, because it made me question a whole lot of my world view - I was pretty certain our civilisation did not have that level of medical technology, so maybe there was something about human biology I'd misunderstood - some way to trigger a sex change. (Clownfish-style, as I now know).

When I realised that all they meant was "surgery and hormones" - ie a cosmetic procedure, and no actual sex change, I was rather miffed at being basically lied to. But also happy that I hadn't being wrong.

And this would have been the 1980s, when there was no intent to lie - I was just confused by the "sex change" terminology, and maybe most adult readers would have understood this?

But now there clearly is intent to lie - albeit by trying to change the definition of "sex" to just mean "secondary sexual characteristics"...

believe that a male who has had their penis inverted and who presents as a woman is as close to a woman as makes no difference.

... but I bet most men wouldn't accept them as a sexual partner, so they do believe there's a difference.

We thought 1975 was a long hot summer, but then 1976 was moreso, the driest for over 200 years. '76 was the year Denis Howell was made Minister for Rain, then shortly after his appointment came the deluge and he became Minister for Rain. A couple of years later he became Minister for Snow.

Just watched the video (and ordered her book). Thanks for sharing such a concise explanation about the situation.
Got to thank Mumsnet for sharing the information that matched my gut feelings and giving me the space to talk to others too.

A man who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones is precisely a man who has had surgery ...etc etc.. As soon as they stop taking the hormones the testosterone will return the body to its original state. If you need a life of constant medication, it seems illogical to say that the body has changed sex, when those changes are so dependent on artificial hormones.

What surgery is it that makes a transman a man, I wonder, soulman?

Is it a hysterectomy? Or a mastectomy? Are all the women who have had that procedure now men? Or just some of them? If the latter, what is the criteria?

@MrsBunHat

There are so many of us. Several of my feminist friends have had the same discussion with me. That they went through the wanting to be a boy stage. Now any girl who feels like that, unless she has gender-critical adults around her to help her think about other possibilities, is at risk of being pushed into transitioning, with the risk of having her female body irreversibly damaged and becoming infertile, and worst of all being led to believe this is all about being her “true self” and celebrated and deluded into thinking she’s so happy about it all. We know from detransitioners that they felt this and were totally sure. That makes sense when it’s being pushed at children like this and they are so young.

If I were being ultra cynical and apocalyptic I might wonder how a system that sterilises and medicalises all the most “boyish” girls arose. The ones who would grow up to be feminists, lesbians and GNC women, the ones who would take plum jobs in engineering, science, politics and leadership, because they were not the ones who would be as effectively limited by bowing to gender expectations. Those girls get effectively drawn into a system that neutralises them. They will never be men, or taken as men by men. They will just be women who this process has tried to shove out of womanhood for not being feminine.

And of course if they have had the hysterectomy then they won't breed to pass such dangerous thoughts and ambitions on.

A great item - thanks for sharing.

@BilboBercow

John Wayne Bobbit had it reattached I believe. Now HE'S a real piece of shit.

At my school girls were actively hounded out of taking these subjects even though they were technically allowed to no one did.

Was the same in our school. Teachers would 'strongly encourage/discourage' peoples choices too

Am only 34 too, so not even that long ago really

@334bu

*This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion.In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.*

So transwomen who have done none of the above and have no intention of having genital surgery, what "sex" are they?

As you know the trans umbrella is ridiculously big now, I would be here all night listing every id out there.

I was asked to explain how I believe it is possible to change sex (at least how the average person would define that)

As a non transitioned trans woman I have a pretty good insight into all this.
So I fall into the category you mentioned and consider myself to be a transwoman.

@Sophoclesthefox

Was 77 the really hot summer? Did something melt and that changed our views?

No, that was ‘76. I spent most of it in a paddling pool in the garden or at the beach. Fun times!