Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

@Imasoulman if you have come on this thread to present a different side to the debate, please feel free.
“You’re wrong I’m right because I said so” doesn’t do your cause any favours.

I am another one who wasn’t born in 1977.

The ageism is quite something to behold. Always.

In 1977 I had a centre parting, now I have a side parting.
Evidently one's parting is now of vital importance in certain circles (none in which I run): www.vogue.co.uk/beauty/article/the-side-parting-debate

also your name sounds like a blender
If not Vogon poetry (it might be), could it be another "purple monkey dishwasher" as that heard at Springfield Elementary School?

Looking forward to my morning feminist brain boost and my mind is now full off a nest of vipers in a blender.

Accurate, I'll take it.

Viper smoothies are great for the complexion. (Just filter out the twiggy bits first.)

Speaking of the 70s, anyone who was in secondary education around 1965- 1977 Could you please help this wonderful student out? Researching second wave feminism (Studying under wor Selena I believe.)

Masters dissertation on second-wave feminism, help needed! www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4252614-Masters-dissertation-on-second-wave-feminism-help-needed

This is the other side of the debate

Yes

Haven’t read the full thread as it seems to have gone off on some kitchen appliance tangent.

I have just watched the full interview. I want to thank Childrenofthestones for sharing it here. It was really interesting and Kathleen was, as ever when I hear her speak, clear and got the most important points across. I thought the interviewer had a very pleasant and concise style too what a pleasure to listen to.

Campervan69 are you me? Gosh. All of that.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

In which language does the combination of ‘a’ and ‘l’ mean ‘w’?

There are so many of us. Several of my feminist friends have had the same discussion with me. That they went through the wanting to be a boy stage. Now any girl who feels like that, unless she has gender-critical adults around her to help her think about other possibilities, is at risk of being pushed into transitioning, with the risk of having her female body irreversibly damaged and becoming infertile, and worst of all being led to believe this is all about being her “true self” and celebrated and deluded into thinking she’s so happy about it all. We know from detransitioners that they felt this and were totally sure. That makes sense when it’s being pushed at children like this and they are so young.

If I were being ultra cynical and apocalyptic I might wonder how a system that sterilises and medicalises all the most “boyish” girls arose. The ones who would grow up to be feminists, lesbians and GNC women, the ones who would take plum jobs in engineering, science, politics and leadership, because they were not the ones who would be as effectively limited by bowing to gender expectations. Those girls get effectively drawn into a system that neutralises them. They will never be men, or taken as men by men. They will just be women who this process has tried to shove out of womanhood for not being feminine.

Thank you for posting this interview. Interviewer was well prepared and asked all the right questions. Professor Stock was measured and fabulous as always.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

Not a good idea to call out other posters’ names for being household appliances when the first half of your own board name rhymes with what you are in a satisfyingly nominative determinist way.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

I am continually amazed at the quality of arguments for 'the other side'. Its baffling really, how so many are seeing the problems with this ideology, despite such amazing contributions as this and endless evidence clearly showing that feminists are just being big nasty meanies

[quote Eminybob]@Imasoulman if you have come on this thread to present a different side to the debate, please feel free.
“You’re wrong I’m right because I said so” doesn’t do your cause any favours.[/quote]
Well I don't think I have a cause, just a belief.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women. Indulge me. Tell me how! Or what that actually means to you.

I'll start.

• Human beings cannot change sex
• Anyone who 'transitions' does so socially and may have a wide range of body modifications, but they then only more closely resemble the sex they wish to 'transition' to
• A GRC gives a transitioned person the legal fiction of having changed sex, with certain caveats - ie they are not actually that sex. but should be treated so in most, but not all , situation.s. That's why it is a Gender recognition Certificate,
• Sex is immutable, based in biology - please don't spout seahorses or 'intersex'
• Gender is the sociological stereotypes, expectations, shorthand, box, imposed upon people within a given society. It changes over time and across societies. One most right minded individuals reject any gender restrictions!
• No amount of dysphoria can make a human being change sex. Society allows that a dysphoric individual can apply for a GRC, can live presenting themselves as whatever it is they think is appropriate for them, the sex they wish to be/be seen as. Most people in society choose to accommodate this. Some don't.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

So you believe that people can change sex? You are entitled to hold this belief, which is scientifically inaccurate, just as you would be entitled to believe in a flat earth.

I’d add that sex is written into every cell in our body.

Please show me a human being who has changed sex, @Imasoulman, so that I can nominate them for a Nobel Prize in biology.

@TiddyTidTwo

The Blendphobia on this thread is shocking.

Oh dear, another blenderbender making a fuss about nothing!

No one says you can't call yourself a blender. We're just saying, if you started out as a teapot, you can't really become a blender.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

In what objective sense are these male people women?

Or is this a belief similar to Roman Catholics believing that bread and wine can be transubstantiated into the actual body and blood of Jesus even though a chemical analysis would still show carbohydrates and aqueous ethanol?

In what objective sense are these male people women?

people who wear skirts are women innit Errol, like on the toilet doors

case closed

I dunno what the collective term for people who go through the menopause is though - anyone got any ideas?

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

What do you mean by:

1. "transwomen"
2. "fully transitioned"
3. "are"
4. "in fact"
5. "women"

Thank you in advance, *Imasoulman"

@ErrolTheDragon

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

In what objective sense are these male people women?

Or is this a belief similar to Roman Catholics believing that bread and wine can be transubstantiated into the actual body and blood of Jesus even though a chemical analysis would still show carbohydrates and aqueous ethanol?

I see the point you’re making but if you could do it without making light of someone else’s religious beliefs that would be appreciated.

I decided a few minutes before my school photo in 1977 (I was 8 at the time) that I really wanted to make my hair like Farah Fawcett Majors. So I took my brush and flicked my fringe (without a mirror) so (in my imagination) it looked just like hers. When the photos were developed and given to us to take home, it turned out that I had somehow managed to push and flatten down my fringe to either side of my forehead leaving a giant spamhead in its place. Not a Farah flick in sight. My mum still has the photo somewhere.