Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

Punk and goth. New wave? That sort of stuff.

The views I had in 77 were that I needed to have a Tonka bin truck my brother had 2 but he was nice and let me play with them.

Can't remember much else tbh.

I think that's ageism isn't it? Old women are just the WORST. Especially if it's your mum wtf is she always going on about putting dirty clothes in the laundry thing and not all over the floor so booorrrrring.

@Cleanandpress

In case anyone thinks I'm all about the smoothie...

Originating as an Olympic lift, the clean and press works no fewer than eight different muscle groups. The lower half of the movement strengthens your hips, glutes, and hamstrings, while the upper half of the movement targets your shoulders, chest, back, and arms.

In just seven days, i can make you a ma-a-a-a-n.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

Welcome to the 12-year old in the house! I always enjoy when the youngsters come along for the ride, but first, some ground rules:

1. No name calling.
2. Use clear language (e.g. what is there proof of?)
3. Provide sources (if there is proof of something, please share).
4. Eat your veggies
5. Listen to your mother

Ninja, magimix, Kenwood...?

Ninja is a great name. Maybe it was a compliment?

alankermode wrote - "you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm".

You seem to be implying that we are obsessed with being transphobic. This is not true.

Most people on the MN FWR forum are instead "obsessed" with the truth/reality that humans cannot change sex. Awareness of how biology actually works is indeed usually less harmful than denial.

Meanwhile, the biology-deniers, who tell transgender people that it is possible to change sex, are lying. These lies are doing harm.

I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it more extremely worried and dismayed by the speed of change, without women in general being asked (and many are still unaware), including in law.

Who the fuck 10 years ago would have though it would be the right thing to talk about vagina havers, and that rapists would be in women's prisons?!

Signed, Ken Wood

@KathleenMagimix

In 1977 I had a centre parting, now I have a side parting.

Me too. It's still much the same colour and (thanks to lockdowns) much the same length. Fewer split ends; I suppose conditioners have improved since then.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

I'm three-and-a-half margaritas in (loads of sugar syrup coz I am not sophisticated enough for the real thing) and that still makes no sense.

My blender, which I nicked from my son, is totally great though. It is called Cucinella Piccola. Unfortunately he wants it back.

In 1977 I thought if I burnt a piece of paper and quickly threw it behind the cupboard when my mum walked in I wouldn't get in trouble.

I was wrong.

I also thought that wolves were the scariest, courtesy of little red riding hood.

I was wrong.
People are much scarier.

Of course they're not women. They have no idea what it's like to be a woman, to face the issues we face, to live with the physiology we live with - how could they?

@Helmetbymidnight

You really think people were not transitioning in the seventies?

what pp said- but also those who did transition (and i know a couple in the 70s-80s after much counselling) did not insist they became the other sex. they defined themselves as transexuals not as women. do you understand the difference soulman?

I understand transgender women very well.
Wether I agree that transwomen are not women is another matter.

OP, thanks for alerting us to this video featuring Kathleen Stock. She presented a clear summary of many of the key problems that the worship of gender identity has caused for women and girls.

Brava, Kathleen Stock. I need to buy that book.

speaking of the 1970s this thread has a surprising number of women who remember not being allowed to take various subjects at school (technical drawing, woodwork etc) because they were girls.
But you tell the young people of today that, and they don't believe you.

@heathspeedwell

On the subject of Vogon poetry, does anyone know how the wonderful Bowlofbabelfish is doing? I used to love reading her posts years ago.

I miss her so much. I should think she's pretty busy with petri dish/mini bowl as well as her wonderfully absorbing research work.

@StillWeRise

speaking of the 1970s this thread has a surprising number of women who remember not being allowed to take various subjects at school (technical drawing, woodwork etc) because they were girls. But you tell the young people of today that, and they don't believe you.

I'll have a look at that thread, thanks.

Being forced to take a particular subject in school that the boys were allowed to avoid made me rebel for the first time against sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes. I was nine. I had zero interest in needlework. But my protest fell on deaf ears.

@StillWeRise

speaking of the 1970s this thread has a surprising number of women who remember not being allowed to take various subjects at school (technical drawing, woodwork etc) because they were girls. But you tell the young people of today that, and they don't believe you.

Most young people today wouldn't even know what technical drawing was, would they? DD had to do some, I think as a rite of passage, in her first term of her engineering degree - she said everyone was hopeless at it but the desks were too high for her - so still sexist. My second form (ie yr 8) form room was the TD room, so although banished to 'domestic science' I had an idea about plan and elevation from what was left on the blackboard.

not being allowed to wear trousers (and organising a succesful protest!) was a key 1970s experience for me

Who the fuck 10 years ago would have though it would be the right thing to talk about vagina havers, and that rapists would be in women's prisons?!

I know...progress

The 70s? My state Catholic secondary school restricted the subjects girls could take into the 1990s, and still won't let them wear trousers.

@StillWeRise

not being allowed to wear trousers (and organising a succesful protest!) was a key 1970s experience for me

I wasn’t allowed to wear trousers at my state comprehensive in the late 90s.

You really think people were not transitioning in the seventies

A tiny handful..adult males.......and it was never proposed that you could actually change sex. Transition ( full re-assignment) was seen as the last resort. And even then those who have lived to regret it. A relation of my husband, for example.

Lots of people, however, experimented with expression through clothes, through hair and make-up, through, name change and so on.....but without the enforced pronouns, or push for children to be transitioned.

there are those who have lived to regret it

Us women who went through this and grew up happy to be women are clear examples of how wanting to be a boy did not equal being trans. It just meant we realised being a girl was crap and being a non-girly girl even harder

like that poor 4 year old girl in the news recently.

off to watch Kathleen Stock, thanks OP.

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender

Welp, that’s me convinced, how could I not be converted in the face of such a strong eloquent argument.

The Blendphobia on this thread is shocking.