Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

Perhaps there are a few outliers who say stuff like this, but I've never come across it.

Stonewall? An outlier?

''@BilindaB: there are so many examples it is hard to know where to begin! Despite the Equality Act explicitly saying that trans women may be excluded from female only spaces, there has been a campaign from Stonewall and other trans rights activists to get trans women into female only spaces. A trans woman recently became the head of Rape Crisis Scotland when the position was advertised as female only. Trans women who have not undergone any surgery or hormonal treatment are being sent to female only prisons, and have sexually assaulted women there. Trans women insist on being allowed to compete in female sports (see Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard, Veronica Ivy). When women insist on female only spaces they are called bigots, even though we have rights to them.

Also, the world of lesbian dating is absolutely dire at the moment (and I can personally attest to this. ) Lesbians are expected to be open to dating trans women with penises because penises are a female organ if they are attached to females. One of the leading lesbian websites recently published a very long piece by a trans author which was entirely about their penis - (it was called "this is an essay about penises.") Lesbian sex guides online now include guides on how to have sex with penises. There is absolutely NO acknowledgement that lesbians may only be interested in biological women. In fact, I'm now alienated from the LGBT community because to admit that is now considered to be bigotry. The message at the moment is - trans women are women, lesbians are attracted to women, so you have to include trans women in your dating pool. Oh, and penises are female.''

You forgot to name any trans people who think transitioning makes them indistinguishable, 100% the same, biologically and genetically, as you claimed many do. I'm interested, as I would not agree with them.

I don't think Chase Strangio of the American Civil Liberties Union is an outlier at all. He is one of many who argues that biological sex is a redundant Western construct and they are fighting to eradicate all women's sex based rights.
A lot of people like him are desperately trying to silence detransitioners voices too. See the recent CBS 60 minutes documentary.

You said ' Also, taking your analogy at face value, trans rights activists are the equivalent of an adoptive mother who insists that she is exactly the same as birthing mothers in all regards, that she did get pregnant and give birth (and we all have to go along with that fiction, or else we are bigots), that there is literally NO difference whatsoever between birthing mothers and adoptive mothers,'

Where are these trans people who think like that? Name a few. Nevermind that you suggested ALL trans activists think like this, which they certainly do not.

Where are these trans people who think like that?

India Willoughby is a good start.

Lily Madigan, who thinks that they will be able to become pregnant at some point.

Munroe Bergdorf.

The list goes on ...

"You forgot to name any trans people who think transitioning makes them indistinguishable, 100% the same, biologically and genetically."

They don't even think that they need to transition to become indistinguishable from females - they think that they are already 'female' (or alternatively, that there is no such thing as the concept 'female' and so the only thing that ties trans women and women together are shared mental states, which amounts to the same thing). I've already mentioned loads of trans women I've talked to who believe they are biologically female but happen to have a penis (which they say is a female penis.) Naming names, off the top of my head, the trans activists who say trans women are identical to biological women are: Munro Bergdof, Shon Faye, India Willoughby, Zinnia Jones, Julia Serrano, Juno Dawson, Chase Strangio, Judith Butler, Abigail Thorne, Natalie Wynn, Tallia Bettcher, Meredith Talusan, Katelyn Burns, Veronica Ivy. ..

That's quite a few 'outliers' and that's only including people who happen to be in the public eye!

Natalie Wynn? Abigail Thorne? No, I am very familiar with both, neither believes trans women are exactly the same as biological women. You are either mistaken or lying, I wonder which. Which makes me doubt some of the other names you list.

...Emmy Zje...

Ah. The No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

Logic fail.

Can you give me some examples of Trans People who claim there is absolutely no difference at all between a trans-person and a person of the gender they have transitioned /are transitioning to? You haven't been here long have you?

There are countless threads with just such examples, from Twitterverse, here, facebook, Stonewall, Mermaids, government ministers, all sorts of people, organisations etc.

If noboy were syaing it, nobody was trying to change the law to erase sex as a prtected characteristic, single sex spaces in general, we wouldn't still be here shouting about it.

And god only knows we would REALLY prefer never to have had to start talking about it in the first place.

If you are going to be all arrivist and try and tell us the sky is not blue expect some push back! Such disingenuous tripe doesn't fly well here!

Ok so if MTF people know they are not female, they can stay out of female single sex spaces. That's great, wasn't as hard as I thought!

@BilindaB

Natalie Wynn? Abigail Thorne? No, I am very familiar with both, neither believes trans women are exactly the same as biological women. You are either mistaken or lying, I wonder which. Which makes me doubt some of the other names you list.

Oh! Isn't she sweet! We lie! For fun, presumably! Or because we are trying to .. erm... well.. nope! Can't work that one out!

Had we never been presented with attempts at changing laws, social mores, been arrested, taken to court, lost jobs - Stonewall REALLY isn't an outlier - we (women that is) would never have noticed there was anything amiss! But we were/are. So we protest!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Ok so if MTF people know they are not female, they can stay out of female single sex spaces. That's great, wasn't as hard as I thought!

Bugger. But you REALLY do see straight to the heart of a thing, don't you

Thanks @BilindaB We can all relaxe. Tis over!

I have a really nice bottle of Cava in the fridge, I might just crack it opneen!

Wasn't Dr Debbie Hayton threatened with disciplinary action for stating that she is biologically a man? I'm sure there's an unpleasant term used by TRA's for transpeople who are fully aware that they haven't literally changed sex.

The problem isn't so much that we are expected to accept that trans woman are woman. The problem is that we must accept they are women in EXACTLY the same way as female women are women

I don’t understand

The paragraph above just says that we must accept trans women are exactly the same as women

There is nothing about transwomen actually believing that they are biological women so why are we having to come up with names?

Yes She was wasn't she! As well as all that other nasty crap she got thrown at her, including that word I think we get deleted for using here!

Note @BilindaB we used her preferred pronouns - do you know why? Because, despite all that has gone on we are still basically polite and see no reason to be unpleasant for the sake of it. That may not be so true of the "Die in a grease fire", piss on your office door, threaten you with complaints of hate crimes to the police, have you taken out of your home whilst feeding your kids breakfast for saying transwomen are men, type people!

Or indeed posters who arrive here and ask disingenuous questions expecting to be applauded elsewhere! We see a lot of that and it is annoying but is the price we pay for having these conversations in the first place! We, GC women, are more likely to be deleted from here than anyone dropping in simply to provoke and garner quotes for Twitter. Guess who does that.... go on, have a guess!

Oh! Isn't she sweet! We lie! For fun, presumably! Or because we are trying to .. erm... well.. nope! Can't work that one out!'

You were either lying or mistaken. Which one? Natalie Wynn and Abigail Thorne both know that they used to be male-bodied, they are not under some delusion that they were born a fully intact biological women with all eggs inside them; they are women - trans-women to be precise (which is a subset of women).

This is like trying to get Boris Johnson to answer a straight question.

@BilindaB

This is like trying to get Boris Johnson to answer a straight question.

???

You've been answered. You just moved the question on a bit.

Funny but when someone else named a transwoman who does NOT think they are female you ignored it (much like you ignored the majority of everything else people have been patient and polite enough to post for you) but YOU bring up 2 names and what? What do you think you are proving? Or have you lost track of that?

@BilindaB honestly. My ex is trans. There are plenty of them who think exactly this way. Many don’t. I have more trans friends than most so I’m aware it’s not all. But it’s enough to have an impact on biological women.

My ex literally tags his pics as “stealth” meaning he thinks he passes and others wouldn’t know. He’s 6ft 3 with a huge Adam’s apple, 40 inch rib cage and a 5 o clock shadow.

He literally told me no man want where will turn him down.

He also told me the best thing about changes to the gra would be that I would have no place he couldn’t access.

Trigger warning on the image I’ve posted. It contains a screenshot of him advertising sex in a popular teen hangout spot at prime time for tipsy teens being there.

So yes. There’s plenty who do. He gets support on this shit in Facebook groups. He’s not alone.

Didn’t mean to include the screenshot about old timey doctors obviously.

BilindaB We've had trans posters on here, I'm not going to name them as it is against the rules, who have not only stated they are actual women but also that they ARE female and always have been.

Again transwomen are not a subset of women they are a subset of men, in order to be a subset of women they would need to female and they don't qualify.