Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

Of course it's a grotesque and mocking parody of women. Those saying it's just men wearing stereotypically female clothing and makeup are in denial. I'm old enough to remember the 70s and 80s when lots of men wore makeup and feminine fabrics (Google The Sweet). What they didn't do was wear comedy breasts, tuck their dicks away, practise female body language for hours and give themselves misogynistic names referring to female bodily functions, abortions, smells etc. If it's not a parody of womanhood why the breasts, why the names? Obvious misogyny is obvious.

@ArabellaScott

I mean, it's all about power, isn't it?

In the male/female relationship, males have power.

Drag queens think they are rejecting their power to act as the one with less agency/power. To say this makes them actually in any way equivalent to understanding a woman's position is to say that a millionaire wearing ragged clothes has any right to comment on the oppression of poverty as part of their lived experience.

Impersonation doesn't offer much insight. It's only ever a reflection of how the impersonator sees the person they are pretending to embody.

This is very well put.

But bring in the concept of a gendered soul and a postmodern structural opppression hierachy reversal and suddenly you can be punching up at that cis privellege.

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

@yeahbutnaw

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

Yes but they refer to themselves as "she" when they do it so regardless of their intentions behind it, they are relating their performance to women and insulting them.

Women are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine too. We don't want to be collateral for gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to women.

@334bu

*I think there is some misogyny in it, but also it's a significant part of gay culture *

So misogyny is ok if the members of the patriarchy are gay?

Yes.

I'd like to see people explain to us why this is ok?

Now. Today's drag performers, not performers 20 years ago. The performers that are out there doing this now.

Why is this ok again?
Because it is ok to be a misogynist if you are 'fighting against discrimination by your own sex'?
Because culturally it was deemed ok in the past?
Because the women telling you it is wrong are 'those types' of women and should be ignored?
Because my friend/neighbour/favourite performer doesn't bring that into their acts, so NADQALT?
Because only 'some women' think it is mocking women?
Because it is only men dressing up. I don't see anything wrong with taking on derogatory names and attitudes and other issues that you all complain about, it is only men dressing up? And they look so confident and happy, so let them do it?
Because female comedians make genital reference jokes too? (never mind that they are not doing it dressed as a parody of a man while they are doing it)
Because it is just people expressing themselves?

I would like to know why. And if it is only a sub-culture of the entire genre, what is being done to address the misogyny by performers who don't support it?

Which other performers are publicly calling out the misogyny that is being enabled?

Yes I added that bit 1. To show it was true and he acknowledged it happened

2. I didn’t want my post deleted so 1. shows it’s true

1. Hopefully he’s shown ‘remorse’ and actually feels remorse too. So there’s hope that discussions like these on this thread will start questioning whether the BBC should really be marketing this show mainstream and at schoolkids who won’t have the critical analysis and experience of life like us mumsnetters.

I met John Barrowman and to say I am disgusted with his actions is an understatement.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people
Or you could explain to us why you're strongly driven to tell women to get back in their box for objecting to derogatory and misogynistic jokes about women.

It's both funny and depressing that on threads where where discuss misogyny, there's always posters ready to tell women to put up, shut up, and listen to men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

So no change there. Women shut up and listen to the men but heaven forbid the men should actually listen to the women.

Forgetting all of the rest of that

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people. And another beautiful DARVO from yeahbutnaw

As has already been said You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to women .

334bu CuriousaboutSamphire
We must have hit post at the same time.

Isn't it fun being told to shut up and listen to men?

I hate it. As a young lesbian in provincial l&g clubs in the 80s we were routinely insulted, called fish or it was pointed out how dull we were in comparison to the drag queens. Also mostly it was just not funny, much of it just consisted of men hoiking their fake bosom and saying, "ooh, get her". It was tedious and I hated it, but it was difficult to avoid on the scene at the time.

Let me lay it out:
Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Let me lay it out:
Women have been oppressed and abused forever for the way they act, their bodies and their bodily functions.
Gay men never had to 'continue societal expectations' by mocking women, by adopting mocking mannerisms, by adopting names that mock the realities of women's lives, by calling each other and perpetuating slurs that relate to women ... in all.

To do their 'fuck you', they actually did NOT have to denigrate women in any way.

But they chose to.

It is LolaSmiles

That particular poster has been a bit of a gift recently, I suspect they have other motives over and above making us snigger!

They have posted a couple of absolute corkers - and that's just the ones I have seen

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

You could keep maintaining your misogynistic view. Or you could listen to women.

CuriousaboutSamphire
I've not noticed them. I shall keep an eye out for any corkers.

@yeahbutnaw

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

I don't believe all drag artists are gay men. Do you?

I don't believe all gay men are feminine. Do you?

We understand opression on the basis of femininity very well, I think we just disagree on the best way to say "fuck you" to societal expectations.

It has everything to do with women, whilst there is still the concept of a stereotypical women (or man).

Who are gay men being oppressed by? Not women. It would be more effective to rip the piss out of toxic masculinity than smelly genetalia and exagerated sex characteristics.

You could keep pontificating about it, or you could listen to women.

By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant.

Nobody cares. Gay people don't. They'll keep doing drag to fight oppression in ways that they see fit.

The world will keep spinning.

@yeahbutnaw

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

Instead of conforming to masculine expectations, drag performers accentuate their imagined, insulting, facile and superficial simulcrum of femaleness as a 'fuck you' to other men.

'It has essentially nothing to do with women' - in that women are not included in the human race in this picture, I see that. It's a matter of men using women - straight men insulting gay men by calling them 'feminine' - i.e. like women and gay men hitting back by acting out a parody of women. The problem is that 'woman' here is used either as an insult or as an empty signifier, devoid of agency. Drag queens are using 'woman' as a kind of sacrificial decoy. 'Take her, not me'.

'Woman' is not a mask, doll, or puppet used in a power game between men.

Women are here, telling you how they feel.

You could listen.

"Who are gay men being oppressed by? Not women."

Are you having a laugh? You think only men are responsible for LGBT oppression?

You're on Mumsnet. There's a woman a few threads down saying her son can't be gay because he likes rough sports and isn't effeminate.

You're the oppressors of gay people as much as straight men are.

drag to fight oppression

Fight men's oppression by subjugating females?

@ArabellaScott

drag to fight oppression

Fight men's oppression by subjugating females?

Again, you assume that only men are responsible for LGBT oppression and that women are somehow completely innocent.

That's utter bollocks.

It would be more effective to rip the piss out of toxic masculinity

Ah, but that would be genuinely risky.

Far safer for drag queens to continue to mock women than ever turn their anger towards maleness, masculinity or men.

@ArabellaScott

It would be more effective to rip the piss out of toxic masculinity

Ah, but that would be genuinely risky.

Far safer for drag queens to continue to mock women than ever turn their anger towards maleness, masculinity or men.

Gay men are oppressed for being FEMININE.

Hence they perform FEMININITY.

Performing masculinity would, by definition, be conforming to societal expectations.

What part of this are you not getting?

To those who support drag, can I ask what the benefits of drag are? The two obvious ones are -

The performer presumably gets something out of it (money and / or some sort of pleasure or validation or release).

The audience (or at least some of the audience) presumably find it funny.

But, it seems to me, that neither of those reasons are really good enough reasons if it's true that lots of women hate it and find it bigoted.

Can anyone point out any other benefits of drag? Does it make intelligent points, or help break down stereotypes, or help undermine bigotry and hate? Does it build up oppressed people?

It occurs to me that even if the drag opponents on this thread are laying it on a bit thick (and I don't think they are), then there is still an argument that trivial benefits of drag are easily outweighed by the possible downsides.

Oh, you are talking about the gangs of women out beating up drag queens?

Amazing that women are so powerful all of a sudden, having been conveniently ignored and dismissed for so long.

Now you come onto a feminist board and tell women we're big bad meanies oppressing gay men by noting that their depiction of women is offensive?