Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@yeahbutnaw

By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant.

Nobody cares. Gay people don't. They'll keep doing drag to fight oppression in ways that they see fit.

The world will keep spinning.

It is pretty clear where the ignorance lies.

And a pretty far reach to say 'Gay people don't care'. Or are you a gay man and this is you speaking for the entire gay population?

@yeahbutnaw

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

I'm a lesbian. I've been as oppressed as you. I don't think expressing disgust and parodying others' bodies, or disparaging and making fun of other groups of people is acceptable. If you wouldn't do it to black people or disabled people then why is it acceptable to do it to women? And there's the misogyny. You also omit the fact that many gay men are as offended by drag as women are. There are lots of gay men who love their sisters and their mums and are uncomfortable around the portrayals of women exhibited in drag acts.

It's not women who oppress men for being gay, is it? Women are rarely guilty of gay-bashing. Few women oppress camp or feminine gay men: they are often the kind of gay men that women feel most comfortable with. It's men who oppress other men for being gay. So why the palpable dislike and hatred of women and women's bodies in so much drag? Why take it out on women?

Many of my LGB friends, including men, are increasingly worried about the displays of sexuality and paraphilias that we see at Pride. It's as if everyone is scared of saying that anything is inappropriate: and those of us who do are told we're humourless feminists. People are allowed to have boundaries. Just because we're LGB doesn't mean we can do what we want and expect people to tolerate it.

@LolaSmiles

CuriousaboutSamphire I've not noticed them. I shall keep an eye out for any corkers.

Do you think policy should be based on feelings alone? In the Belfast thread. Was so unexpected I had to read it twice to make sure!

So I now have a completely different mental image and opinion of that poster. They now make me

Men in drag aren't performing femininity, they're performing a parody of it.

The equivalent would be a parody of extreme maleness.

But that's never done, for some reason.

Gay men are oppressed for being FEMININE.
Hence they perform FEMININITY.
Performing masculinity would, by definition, be conforming to societal expectations.
What part of this are you not getting?

Surely a drag performer could give up drag and perform as themselves and come up with clever jokes to mock masculinity? Or maybe they can't, maybe the best a drag performer can manage is a shallow characature of an easy target?

Yes, absolutely. It's an expression of woman-hating. There's nothing redeeming in it.

drag to fight oppression
Let's be charitable as assume this is the case.

1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

Hence they perform FEMININITY. Yes! And their perception of feminity usually involves it having a distinctive and unpleasant smell, amongst other stupid, debasing, persistently negative perceptions.

Which is the point you are determined to side step! - or step ball change of you wish to feminise that a bit more!

CuriousaboutSamphire

that one was terrific Curious. That poster surely must have had a 'oh.... right....' moment, but we may never know because they may never be able to admit it.

@Shedbuilder

All due respect, but do you have any gay male friends? You seem to be reducing LGBT oppression to violent acts, which is a gross misrepresentation of oppression.

Do straight women take part in gay-bashing? Yes. Probably not as often as men. But they do.

Do they participate in other forms of LGBT oppression? Abso-fucking-lutely. How many times have you heard a woman introduce a friend as "my gay friend"? How many times have you heard a woman say, "Such a waste" when they hear someone is gay? How many times have you heard a woman make fun of gay stereotypes?

Answer? All. The. Fucking. Time.

Instead of conforming to masculine expectations, drag performers accentuate their imagined, insulting, facile and superficial simulcrum of femaleness as a 'fuck you' to other men.

Indeed. Women as homosocial tokens for men to use in their discourse between themselves. This makes it very clear that the men who do this don't see women as full humans but only as secondary service drones.

@ArabellaScott

Men in drag aren't performing femininity, they're performing a parody of it.

The equivalent would be a parody of extreme maleness.

But that's never done, for some reason.

Never heard of a Drag King then?

To equate it to a drag queen performance, though, it wouldn't be 'themselves', it would be - I dunno, a bloke with a huge fake beard, a Dali moustache, a huge chest wig, a giant cock and balls, jeans hanging off his arse, and a voice as rough as a badger's backside, etc. Lurid, crass and exaggerated.

do you have any gay male friends?

Do you have any female friends?

Gay men are not opressed by feminist women for being feminine. Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex. You dufus. What part of this are you not getting?

Not all gay men are feminine. That sounds remarkably like a societal expectation to me.

I have never met anyone so trapped by the binary and steroetypes and so oblivious to how led by the nose by it they really are , Yeahbutnaw.

By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant.Nobody cares. Gay people don't. They'll keep doing drag to fight oppression in ways that they see fit.The world will keep spinning.
Women will keep dying . Girls who menstruate will still be banished to freeze in huts to save men from having to endure the stench of their genitals. Men will continue to humiliate women to get back at other men . The world will keep spinning and drag will still be totally and utterly misogynistic.

@yeahbutnaw

"Who are gay men being oppressed by? Not women."

Are you having a laugh? You think only men are responsible for LGBT oppression?

You're on Mumsnet. There's a woman a few threads down saying her son can't be gay because he likes rough sports and isn't effeminate.

You're the oppressors of gay people as much as straight men are.

And gay men are the oppressors of women just as much as straight men are 🤷‍♀️

You're really not getting that gay people do not have the monopoly on oppression over women.

yeahbutnaw
As you care deeply about fighting oppression perhaps you could explain:
How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

@ArabellaScott

To equate it to a drag queen performance, though, it wouldn't be 'themselves', it would be - I dunno, a bloke with a huge fake beard, a Dali moustache, a huge chest wig, a giant cock and balls, jeans hanging off his arse, and a voice as rough as a badger's backside, etc. Lurid, crass and exaggerated.

You mean an ageing Paul Calf?

Oh, no! That was Steve Coogan wasn't it?

Or maybe Vesta Tilley. Scandalous and very patriotic. My great grandmother and DHs great Aunt loved her with a passion! I remmber Grandma talking about her with the wide eyed amazement we usually reserve for war heroes, adventurers.

www.theguardian.com/music/2010/may/13/cross-dressing-women-musical-theatre

[quote yeahbutnaw]@Shedbuilder

All due respect, but do you have any gay male friends? You seem to be reducing LGBT oppression to violent acts, which is a gross misrepresentation of oppression.

Do straight women take part in gay-bashing? Yes. Probably not as often as men. But they do.

Do they participate in other forms of LGBT oppression? Abso-fucking-lutely. How many times have you heard a woman introduce a friend as "my gay friend"? How many times have you heard a woman say, "Such a waste" when they hear someone is gay? How many times have you heard a woman make fun of gay stereotypes?

Answer? All. The. Fucking. Time.[/quote]
I have always had gay male friends, right the way back to school and university, all the way through HIV and the early days of Pride. I was also involved with Stonewall. I now live in a city famed for its gay culture.

I wouldn't be bothered by anyone introducing me as Shedbuilder, their lesbian friend. I can't help wondering how deep your internalised homophobia goes that you are regard that as oppression. I don't know women who make fun of gay stereotypes: none of my friends are homophobic.

You sound like a very angry man.

Now, now Shed We aren't allowed real life friedns fo the vareied nature. Let alone to be old enough to have had friends and family of that nature in a different bloody century!

Aside: AS I type Donna Summer is warbling I Feel Love.. and I can't help feel the regression of this century as far as every day inclusivity is concerned!

Wondering how much time yeahbutnaw spends on men's websites, berating them for oppressing LGBT people ...

I don't know women who make fun of gay stereotypes: none of my friends are homophobic

Same.

Yes, often very evident that the men performing drag despise women.

"Can anyone point out any other benefits of drag? Does it make intelligent points, or help break down stereotypes, or help undermine bigotry and hate? Does it build up oppressed people?"

Sorry, can't figure out how to copy bits of quotes in bold.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

It goes without saying I condemn some of the crass and genuinely misogynistic type of queens previously mentioned, who mock their audience and put little effort into cruel jokes.

Gay men are oppressed for being FEMININE.

Hence they perform FEMININITY.

Performing masculinity would, by definition, be conforming to societal expectations.

What part of this are you not getting?

Ooh, I don't know. maybe the part about where FEMININITY involves males dressing up in highly sexualised clothing, stopping their shows to deliver babies and to throw into the audience with the exclamation of 'another black one'? Is that feminine?

Maybe it is the part where FEMININITY, involves taking a small girl that was murdered, and more than likely abused, certainly objectified, and using it as a name for people's entertainment? Is that feminine?

Maybe it is calling each other bitches and exaggerated mannerisms? Is that feminine is, or is that a MALE's view of what FEMININITY is?

What part of this are you not getting?

Probably the part where any drag queen parodying what they perceive as being a woman as FEMININITY?

Or maybe we are not getting how you, yourself, have a such a very misogynistic view on what FEMININITY is?