Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

It's not just about the performer, either. It's also about the pushback from the community, and their fellow performers, or the lack of it.

Jonbenet Blonde, Malestia Child, Anna Bortion, Miss Carriage are getting booked, aren't they? If they weren't, they'd have changed their names in response to the negative feedback.

I can see nothing female in the face of a drag performer not even in a grotesque sense.

Who are they attempting to portray for laughs, if not a grotesque version of women?

I can't claim to be an expert on the history but my understanding is that in its original incarnation drag was about gay men and lesbians and happened in closed and often illegal clubs. It wasn't a spectator sport. It was the only place that butch dykes and effeminate gay men could meet and they performed for and sometimes with each other.

There was a middle period where the straight population were alllowed in.

But now it's just misogyny on steroids.

I'm not sure. I always thought of it as a parody of femininity rather than females, especially in the context of the (mainly) gay men who would exaggerate a feature that they would face abuse or violence for expressing in ordinary life.
I also think a lot of gay men go into it for the pure fun of dressing up, and not anything to do with women.
However, I've since seen a huge amount of truly awful misogynistic drag acts and I think my original take is a lot more complex.
I still think my original feelings still apply for a lot of drag queens but as in most male-dominated environments, misogyny can be a huge problem and isn't called out or even recognised even when its running rampant and instead becomes integrated into the day-to-day.

"I think there is some misogyny in it, but also it's a significant part of gay culture - I think it's OK as long as we're aware of what's potentially problematic about it."*
*
It's this boundary that makes it hard for me to get worked up about 'fish' - although I totally understand why others do. Eg Drag Race is a behemoth and has lost a lot of its original charm, but it's easy to forget how small and underground it started. In a lot of ways I don't think it - and some of the terminology used by drag queens - was ever supposed to make it to the mainstream, or move particularly outside of gay culture.

You might argue this ignores a problem that would still exist (or even be worse) behind closed doors, but every subculture is going to have its own slang and in jokes, even if they're not in good taste.

I mean, it's all about power, isn't it?

In the male/female relationship, males have power.

Drag queens think they are rejecting their power to act as the one with less agency/power. To say this makes them actually in any way equivalent to understanding a woman's position is to say that a millionaire wearing ragged clothes has any right to comment on the oppression of poverty as part of their lived experience.

Impersonation doesn't offer much insight. It's only ever a reflection of how the impersonator sees the person they are pretending to embody.

Yes it's misogynistic. Many of the jokes are about how 'slutty' the drag queen is (even Lily Savage did this), and the names often follow along with this or are plain awfulin pther ways: Flo Job, Cheryl Hole, Miss Carriage, Anna Bortion Malestia Child...

I always thought of it as a parody of femininity rather than females,

Yes, sure, but what does it mean for a male to make this parody? And what does it mean for a female to make this parody?

You have to consider what the power differential is between a man and a woman.

Is it nice to parody femininity that women are nevertheless bullied into conforming

Force someone to do something and then Laugh at them for it ?

I think the idea is that drag queens see themselves as bravely rejecting masculine stereotypes, by exaggeratedly pretending to take on feminine stereotypes.

It's all through a male lens. Nowhere in here are actual women seen, heard, considered.

This is maybe why female drag queens get so much hostility. When a real life woman opens her mouth, makes herself visible as a human with agency, it spoils the game being played by men, who were happily taking femininity as a voiceless mirage, playing with it for themselves, happy to claim it, ridicule it, mock it as it has no real impact on them, they can take the outfit off at the end of the day.

It's still males seeing women as not-quite-human, isn't it? Just as form of 'not-men'.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Can I blame grammarly for arguement?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Some of it is certainly highly misogynistic.

Take this list of names. Entrants include "Malestia Child" and "Anna Bortion".
www.pride.com/comedy/2019/7/19/18-funniest-drag-queen-names#media-gallery-media-16

I've also come across one whose stage name was "Miss Carriage".

I live abroad so the RU Paul Drag Race phenomenon has largely passed me by. Last week I saw a discussion of this film on the local broadcaster's cultural strand.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Kids

One of the children had the stage name 'Queen Lactatia'. He can't have chosen that for himself, surely?I had to stop watching during that particular clip. I find modern drag to be horrendously misogynistic and nothing like what I encountered as a student in London in the late 90s. It seemed friendlier then, although that might just have been the particular scene I knew.

The fact that children are now getting involved chills me, and that one child has the name 'Queen Lactatia' puts me in mind of the vegan cat analogy. We all know who's making the choices.

I think over recent years the professional drag scene has morphed into a huge money making concern, so they are all desperately trying to out do and other and in so doing becoming more and more grotesque and crude.

Mentioning Jonbenet Blonde earlier has reminded me of a list of celebrity endorsements on their website.

"The Original “Fash Mag Slag”
One of the only Drag queens ever to perform on the Pyramid Stage of Glastonbury..ever!
Performing, Djing and Producing shows for over 10 years in London. Being a creative director for Sink The Pink and performing with Pop legends: Little Mix, Melanie C, The Pussycat Dolls, Zara Larsson, Nadine Coyle and more!"

So this impersonation of a little girl who was murdered as an entertainment act is juxtaposed with Little Mix, a mainstream popular girl band with fans who are under 18.

I think that moves somewhere beyond misogyny tbh.

I think there is some misogyny in it, but also it's a significant part of gay culture

So misogyny is ok if the members of the patriarchy are gay?

@334bu

*I think there is some misogyny in it, but also it's a significant part of gay culture *

So misogyny is ok if the members of the patriarchy are gay?

Stop! I went to make myself a sandwich, my brand new keyboard is now wearing some of it!

I spluttered at that original comment and came to make a similar response.

I can't work out who should be more offended: gay men for the asumptions about them or women!

Drag kids is a whole other ball game.

Yes I do.

I suppose it’s the John Barrowman defence: It can’t be offensive to put your penis on an unsuspecting actress’ shoulder as a joke because you’re gay. I find that equally offensive to gay men and to women.

With fairness to John Barrowman it is reported he has apologised for past events.

I go to a lot of drag shows and yes some of it is horribly misogynistic and in really bad taste. Other acts are creative, intelligent and really focus on either performance skills or incredible design and make up.

It's a shame that the off key stuff is not pulled up more though as it can be off putting for women in the audience I imagine.

In summary I would say lots of Drag is wonderful and I love to watch it but some of it is definitely offensive to women.

And as pp upthread said there is a difference between comedy punching up or down.

If it’s all so inoffensive, why is the Drag scene not cleaning up its act and condemning the acts and names that are generating the complaints?

Doubling down gives the impression that they actually approve of the more offensive acts.

@Zandathepanda

With fairness to John Barrowman it is reported he has apologised for past events.

So the fact that he's apologised for what's effectively sexual assault makes it all right, does it?

I find it misogynistic. Have never liked it. Pleased to find others feeling the same.

With fairness to John Barrowman it is reported he has apologised for past events.

Sure he has , after the fact and probably only because he is fearful about future work. In what universe did he think it was ever acceptable to hit women on the face with his penis.