Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@Shedbuilder I do agree with what you've said. I've seen drag artists mock women in the audience for looking/acting plain, boring or meek. I don't agree with that part of drag. I also agree there is some misogyny in drag, and in the way gay men view women - butch women especially. I think that should be called out and addressed. I do think however that the view held on here by many that ALL drag is bad and a mockery of women is wrong. It has it's dark side and that should be addressed, but the whole thing shouldn't be shut down because of it, as some here would probably like to see.

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is
Exactly, patriarchy and toxic masculinity can affect both women and drag queens alike, so don't see how taking offence at drag is helping anyone as surely both are fighting the same thing.....

I hate drag with a passion. It is misogynistic.

I've heard this for a couple of years, and thought about it but I don't feel insulted as a woman. I think an individual drag artist can be misogynistic but so can any man (or woman), I just don't think wearing a dress and make up is inherently misogynistic. Everybody is free to wear what they want IMO both clothing and make up. Particularly make up, watching Strictly made me realise that many men are vastly improved with eye-liner for instance (still feel a bit weak at the memory of Johnny Peacock's tango).

I also don't think of it as woman face, any more than me wearing jeans and a t-shirt and bare face is man face. I have never, ever met a woman in person who looks like that. If anything it's diva-face, they are mostly imitating the style of music stars or particularly glamorous 'celebrities' for instance at the Met Gala or red-carpet events.

I'm appalled at what has happened to Shedbuilder and the drag movement definitely needs to consider the overall attitude and police themselves, but if you somehow banned them from wearing dresses those individuals would still be nasty bastards.

I don't like drag, and I don't think it's funny, but I'm a liberal so feel I have to live with it.

I agree with some of what greatauntfanny said. Gay men and women are both groups who get the shitty end of the patriarchy stick. Focusing ire on gay men for problems born of the patriarchy is unlikely to get us any further forward. Similarly, directing anger at so-called handmaids is also getting us nowhere. They're still wrong, though.

Can I blame grammarly for arguement?

Much of the blatant misogyny exhibited in the 'fishy' references and derogatory names are NOT self deprecating.

Indeed they are not. And if there is more than 'one kind of drag' as people propose, where are all the drag artists who feel that the acts have gone too far into misogyny? Where is their campaign to eradicate the abuse of women from their genre?

Because the horrific names are not done in a way to focus the attention on women's abortion needs, or needs for better safeguarding. These are abusive to women as they are completely derogatory.

Because the reference to women's bodily function by males on mainstream TV as a source of mocking comedy, would not be acceptable to any other group of people.

If people genuinely feel that there are performers who don't fit this profile, where are they working to remove this aspect from their genre?

Or because we are women, and have suffered eons of discrimination and hate that is so well ingrained into society, we have no rights, whereas men who have suffered abuse have got those rights.

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

And they do this by insulting and expressing disgust at another oppressed community — women — in public? And that's okay? So long as the men feel better about themselves it's all okay?

Aberystwyth University banned drag last September for being offensive to transwomen.

"A universitystudents’ union has banned “drag”-themed parties, claiming the events “make a mockery” oftransgenderpeople.

Students atAberystwythUniversity in Wales have been told not to dress up as the opposite gender for nights out, unless the event is designed to “celebrate” theLGBTcommunity.

Students’ union officials said “drag socials” are "usually about members of random groups dressing up as the opposite gender in a general way that has the intention of being as funny as possible”.

Aberystwyth’s LGBT society, AberPride, said it supported the ban as most student drag nights make "a mockery of trans women and the trans femme experience”.

“Often cisgender (and frequently heterosexual) males will take drag socials as an opportunity to ridicule trans people, and AberPride will not stand by and accept that,” the society told student news site The Tab."

Continues: www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/drag-socials-lgbt-aberystwyth-university-a4540951.html

But women shouldn't object?

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is
Exactly, patriarchy and toxic masculinity can affect both women and drag queens alike, so don't see how taking offence at drag is helping anyone as surely both are fighting the same thing.....

Drag is part of the patriarchy. A group of men men being mocked for being too feminine punch down at an even more oppressed group saying that they are "better "than us because they at least don't stink!! Typical bullying behaviour.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

So, they are allowed to express themselves by engaging in derogation of women if they adopt the names, the attitudes and the jokes or, if they as an individual don't do that, they also do absolutely nothing to enact changes so that women are not being parodied in such a way for people's amusement.

Because women are a large group and are used to dealing with being treated that way, they can suck up any discomfort because it helps another group in society to treat women that way. Really?

But women shouldn't object?

That is the theme of many posts on this thread isn't. Nothing to see here, it is only a few performers that cross the line, and anyway, they need it because they have suffered abuse and oppression....

Oh wait... it is the same argument we see on other topics where women are being silenced or told they are over reacting as well, isn't it?

@Naunet

Every time I hear this argument all I think is that these people obviously think makeup and dresses are inherently female. Drag queens don’t claim to be female.

Why are people posting this disingenuous rubbish? Claiming it’s just dresses and make up, and women don’t own that. So they don’t call each other she then? They don’t mock women? They don’t make misogynistic comments and jokes? They don’t play up to the worst stereotypes of women? It’s just dresses.
Bullshit.

Dresses and fake tits

Of course it's blatantly misogynistic. But misogyny is so prevalent in our society we've gotten used to it.

I hate the term "woman face". I can see nothing female in the face of a drag performer not even in a grotesque sense.

I also don't think that drag is inherently misogynistic but it definitely can be. I wouldn't see it banned though and I don't think the comparison to black face is a good one. On the whole I find it boring rather than offensive (I have to admit though I'm not easily offended). They remind me of clowns (mostly dull but sometimes a bit creepy). I definitely think they should be nowhere near schools or libraries though.

Of course drag is inherently misogynistic. A group of men, mocked by heterosexual men for being too feminine parody the group that those men are attracted to, emphasising the " grossness" of the female body but nothing misogynistic about it? Aye right

If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

You're making a judgement on the people who find racist comments offensive? You can't surely be saying that racist comments are acceptable if used as part of a drag act?

They're not the bad guys in this situation. If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

OK. The only thing you can say about this was

The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

And woman drawing boundaries stating that this behaviour is offensive and misogynistic are the 'bad guys' then? We are the problem? Because we can see it, and you can't?

Oh .... and we don't have a sense of humour apparently. Maybe I should be laughing with incredulousness at how ludicrous it is to be called the 'bad guys' for finding that offensive.

@Interestedparty132

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface. Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

But white people who put on blackface don't claim to be literal black people. Does that mean blackface is ok within that context? It's just make up and wig too.

Justin Trudeau was publicly called out for blackface when he dressed up as Aladdin for a party. He was being a disney cartoon character.

Also, drag in under the trans umbrella and we all men under that umbrella are declared to be 'non-cis' women.

Oooh, now there's a new one — telling feminists that we have no sense of humour...

And what about the prosthetic breasts. It is rather womanface isn't it.

I think there is some misogyny in it, but also it's a significant part of gay culture - I think it's OK as long as we're aware of what's potentially problematic about it. I don't think it's hateful towards women but it does irk that queens are celebrated for displaying characteristics that have been used (inaccurately) to hold back women- oh, women are shallow, women are bitchy, women are so competitive with each other. Although these same accusations are held against gay men and drag culture is in large part a reaction to that rather than against women.

I honestly didn't mind much of the older forms of drag where it was clear that they were gay men who liked pretty costumes and who often had a hand in designing and making these. Sometimes the compere was a drag king.

The newer forms ... nah.

@Interestedparty132

Makeup and high heels are not inherent to women. Men wearing them aren’t appropriating something that is ours. Drag didn’t originate as a mockery of women as blackface did in respect of black people. It was started by gay men who faced prejudice for being effeminate.

I have seen a lot of drag, living in a city with a large gay population and world famous gay quarter - I think drag has a massive range from celebratory to misogynistic depending on the performer and their own issues.

It's perfectly possible to discuss the misogyny and sexism of drag without getting into the race/blackface issue..

Drag is a culture - the whole premise or 'joke' is that men 'abase' or ridicule themselves by dressing like women and taking on a hyper feminine appearance.

'He claimed women drag artists lack 'danger and irony' - in part because men dressing in women's clothes is an overt rejection of masculinity'

It's not 'ironic' for women to dress in a hyper-feminised manner is what he's saying here. Because he is unable to separate women from hyper-feminine. He's seeing those feminist stereotypes as intrinsically buried within women, the 'feminine' gender as being inherent and inborn to women. Saying that women and their gendered stereotypes are intrinsically linked in these ways is to say that hair, make up, tits, frocks, heels are part of the condition of 'woman'. It's also inferring that an extreme focus on appearance is somehow 'feminine'.

If he says there is no irony in women dressing as feminine he is saying women are feminine and can't escape that 'gender', can't comment on it, examine it from an objective point of view, can't be outside of that 'gender'. They should only live within it, never poke fun, never question it or mock it.

That's my reading of it, anyway.

Then again, he's calling it a rejection of masculinity. Is it? Wouldn't that entail men actually acting in ways that are considered not-masculine? That would be ... caring, kind, gentle, what am I missing. Drag queens are known for being outrageous, loud, funny, crass, ridiculous. It's showing a man taking on the outward stereotypes of femininity is ridiculous. To me it seems to be doing the opposite of rejecting masculinity. It's playing against the stereotype of masculinity, but it's not really undermining it, is it?