Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

When I first saw drag in a gay club I was watching in the spirit of wanting to be supportive to gay men, as most young women do. However, a lot of the jokes didn't sit right with me at all, I didn't find it funny, and looking back it did feel misogynistic. I think young women in particular are gaslighted into ignoring their reactions to the misogyny in drag by the idea that it is 'inclusive' and 'just a bit of fun'. There's the age old idea that all gay men are harmless towards women, all gay men are our best friends etc, but of course gay men can be every bit as misogynistic as straight men. The implication is that if you don't like drag, you are a homophobe, so a lot of women blindly accept it without thinking any deeper about it - and of course it all looks like good fun with ott costumes and makeup. The past few years it is everywhere, and it pisses me off that we are being socially groomed to accept it without question - any art form should be open to criticism, particularly one as sexualised as drag. I actually don't object to all drag acts, I appreciate the creativity in the outfits and makeup and it really depends on the material and whether we are made to feel like the character is more than a grotesque misogynistic stereotype. Unfortunately having watched some of RuPaul's Drag Race I find the vast majority a) unfunny and b) misogynistic. Due to the stigma of women criticising drag, which prevents women listening to their gut reactions to this, young women won't complain, whereas they would if it were a straight male comedian making sexist jokes. With this lack of criticism, the drag artistes have free reign to be as sexist and nasty as they like, not good.

...I do also think there's an element of male competitiveness at play. I think men don't like women to be better at anything than them, even traditionally 'feminine' activities, so here we have drag artistes being better at being women than women themselves with all their extravagant makeup and costumes. (You get similar in cookery, the trope of the male chef swearing and throwing his weight around in the kitchen). In a way it could be taken as the drag artistes saying 'women are nothing, we don't need them, we're better than them'. You also get the mockery of any women who can't perform femininity as well as them eg. butch women. When I've watched shows like drag race, it seems the women on there tend to be cheerleaders - their mothers, or glamourous young things who the queens would like to imitate. There doesn't seem much appreciation of women for their intellect or skills, only as glamourous sex objects or support humans.

We can unpack whatever we like & still be mindful of hurt we may cause

In unpacking drag, I've had to use words such as 'slag' and 'slapper' to illustrate certain points, even though I find them offensive and hurtful.
But you can't deconstruct things if you cannot even mention them. I think we need to be brave enough to be exposed to that which hurts us.

Yes I do. I fucking hate it. Cheeky bastards.

The implication is that if you don't like drag, you are a homophobe, so a lot of women blindly accept it without thinking any deeper about it - and of course it all looks like good fun with ott costumes and makeup

Which brings us to the, often disturbing, arrival of 'Drag Queen Story Time'

When I've watched shows like drag race, it seems the women on there tend to be cheerleaders - their mothers, or glamourous young things who the queens would like to imitate. There doesn't seem much appreciation of women for their intellect or skills, only as glamourous sex objects or support humans

Yes, often diva types - whose particular features or characteristics can be encapsulated & condensed, and be 'dragged up'.

@Novelusername Great point about how young women are pushed into being supportive of drag - I definitely see this in my age group. I'm wondering whether women being naturally inclined to empathise with other marginalised groups and support their liberation is contributing to us being thrown under the bus, because LGBT+ rights and racial diversity both seem to be "hotter" topics these days, and both groups seem to be given a free pass to be misogynistic. I'm just reading between the lines, but I think perhaps women are showing a level of empathy that men, whether straight or gay, white or black, don't seem to return.

In the case of drag - I understand it's roots and why it once made sense for the men doing it to call themselves women whilst in character. We didn't live in a society that on any level understood that men didn't have to be "masculine", and women didn't have to be "feminine". But why oh why, in this day and age, is it necessary for drag acts to call themselves women and make jokes about female anatomy, etc? Why have we not moved on to accept that there is absolutely no reason why men can't be into elegant makeup and dresses in their own right, as a male? If you want to break down harmful stereotypes- that would be the way to go, now. They're not doing anything for the gay community by reinforcing that only women should act that way. It would also be a sensible response to all the women that are offended by what they are doing, that allows them to still continue their art whilst removing the unnecessary connection to women. But no, they don't even consider doing anything like that, because it doesn't bother them at all that they are causing massive offence to the marginalised group they are parodying. It's just another way the LGBT+ community has, bizarrely, opted to ADD to the harmful gender stereotypes and constraints of modern society, rather than helping to shake them off and show them to be as redundant as they are.

I've also on holiday seen one that fits the descriptions I've read on here. Mocking this idea of a disgusting hyper sexual woman. I was fairly young and one of the performers on stage slapped me as part of the act. It fucking hurt and I remember feeling the pressure to laugh along as I'm sure it didn't look to the audience like a man slapping a woman but that's what it was.

That's appalling. Abusive misogynist wanker.

I don't like it. I think it's misogynistic. My close friends teenage dd wants to watch nothing but Ru Paul.
I fear this is a very unpopular and old fashioned view, considered bigoted, which I find even more insulting.

I've been thinking about this for the past day or two. There are a few points I'd like to make.

It seems to me that there are some parallels between blackface and drag, and a lot of them are mentioned upthread. The fact that there are some parallels does not mean that blackface and drag are identically offensive, however, and it does not deny anyone's experience.

Second, it has been said that black women have objected to the comparison, on the grounds that they feel more marginalised as black people than as women, and they find it offensive and upsetting. This is a very important point. When it is not necessary to draw attention to parallels, then to do so is simply gratuitous. If the issue can be discussed without drawing parallels, then it should be.

Third (and here I'm sticking my neck out), I think that possessing a characteristic which is seen as marginalised does without doubt give you a unique perspective and one which has to be taken very seriously. But it is not an exclusive perspective, which disallows all others. It does not give you the right to allow or disallow discussion of an issue. It also can not be used by others to allow or disallow such discussion. You can say "black women have asked us not to compare blackface and drag, so don't", but there is no reason why anyone should obey this instruction beyond simply taking it into account when making a point.

Delicate and sensitive issues need to be discussed sensitively and delicately out of sheer human decency, and it is quite possible to do so. But there are also times when a refusal to debate or resorting to insincere or vexatious rhetoric need to be faced down vigorously and directly. What I really love about this board is that it manages to hit this balance so often, which is a rare thing on the interwebs! It's why I spend so much time here.

It’s not just gay men doing it though. Drag has a long history in music hall and stand up comedy throughout the twentieth century in which it was done to parody older women in particular - think of Monty Python.

Straight men used to also be all for a bit of misogynistic drag clowning and that tradition is also where the very ageist aspect of it comes in - presenting older women as ridiculous, ugly and caricatured figures.

The pantomime dame has become more like Ru Paul in recent years, but it originally existed as part of that much older tradition across music hall, ballet, and popular stage performances, in which it was a “character part” for older men to perform their comedy skills in parodying the malevolent, or stupid ugly old woman, who was contrasted with the young sexy heroine (look at the drag character dances in ballets like La Fille Mal Gardee, or Sleeping Beauty, for example).

The fact that there are some parallels does not mean that blackface and drag are identically offensive, however, and it does not deny anyone's experience

Obviously nobody can possibly know how offended another person feels; or say that their offence is more intense and deeply deeply felt than that of another.

Yes I do think it's misogynistic.

Obviously nobody can possibly know how offended another person feels; or say that their offence is more intense and deeply deeply felt than that of another

As a woman it is possible to feel the intensity of persecution of generations of women and girls; to feel the sufferings of women locked into 'women's rooms' in Saudi Arabia; to feel, intensely, the hatred contained within the word 'bitch'; to be able to feel the suffering of women who have had this word used on them as they were being beaten or murdered.......

Who is to say which oppression and which offence is the greatest?

My feeling is that black women have been socialised to focus on their blackness rather than on their femaleness; for the reason that their blackness includes men, and the oppression of men, as a result.
Women, and women's issues, are always at the bottom of the pile.

I don't think drag is insulting or making fun of women. I'm not at all offended by it. Drag is so far removed from how I look or act its not something I relate to as being about women at all.
Blackface is on another level altogether.

My feeling is that black women have been socialised to focus on their blackness rather than on their femaleness; for the reason that their blackness includes men, and the oppression of men, as a result.
Women, and women's issues, are always at the bottom of the pile.

Absolutely. I am completely sick of the narrative that sexism is somehow lesser then all of the other "isms" and hasn't had as horrific an impact throughout history. The facts do not stack up, men just do not want to take it seriously, probably because to some extent many of them are still doing it.

@Livingintheclouds

I don't think drag is insulting or making fun of women. I'm not at all offended by it. Drag is so far removed from how I look or act its not something I relate to as being about women at all. Blackface is on another level altogether.

So the fact that they are literally calling themselves women whilst doing it doesn't twig any connection to women in your mind?

Drag is so far removed from how I look or act its not something I relate to as being about women at all. Blackface is on another level altogether.

Is Blackface not also far removed from how black people actually look or behave?

Drag came about in quite different times, when it was perfectly mainstream to portray sexually active women as 'slags' and so on.

It used to be perfectly mainstream for comics to parody disabled people and people with speech impediments but nobody would condone this now, so what is different about women, why are we as a group not considered worthy of respect?

The general rule of thumb is if members of the discriminated class feel that something is offensive, society accepts that

Racism , anti Semitic, disabalism , homosexuals all get a say in when something is offensive to them

Except when it's women complaining about misogyny

@midgedude

The general rule of thumb is if members of the discriminated class feel that something is offensive, society accepts that

Racism , anti Semitic, disabalism , homosexuals all get a say in when something is offensive to them

Except when it's women complaining about misogyny

Absolutely. To cite a recent example, I found it a little hard to take seriously the many many articles and complaints I saw about Justin Bieber wearing his hair in dreadlocks, when things like drag are allowed to exist and publically celebrated despite how many women feel about it.

Absolutely. To cite a recent example, I found it a little hard to take seriously the many many articles and complaints I saw about Justin Bieber wearing his hair in dreadlocks, when things like drag are allowed to exist and publically celebrated despite how many women feel about it.

As a white person I too did not understand the scandal about white personalities wearing dreadlocks and then I read an article on BBC news site about the history of black hairstyles and the discrimination black people have suffered just because of their hair. It was fascinating and made me very ashamed of my previous attitude.
The only upside to these stars appropriating these styles is that unlike drag there is no intent to humiliate and degrade the group whose culture they are appropriating

@334bu

*Absolutely. To cite a recent example, I found it a little hard to take seriously the many many articles and complaints I saw about Justin Bieber wearing his hair in dreadlocks, when things like drag are allowed to exist and publically celebrated despite how many women feel about it.*

As a white person I too did not understand the scandal about white personalities wearing dreadlocks and then I read an article on BBC news site about the history of black hairstyles and the discrimination black people have suffered just because of their hair. It was fascinating and made me very ashamed of my previous attitude.
The only upside to these stars appropriating these styles is that unlike drag there is no intent to humiliate and degrade the group whose culture they are appropriating

Well, yes, exactly. I don't want to derail with an in depth discussion on the ins and outs of cultural appropriation, but I couldn't help but think "hang on, how is someone wearing a hairstyle black people (amongst others) have used horrifically offensive, yet people are allowed to openly mock women and it's seen as a good thing?"

@Livingintheclouds

I don't think drag is insulting or making fun of women. I'm not at all offended by it. Drag is so far removed from how I look or act its not something I relate to as being about women at all. Blackface is on another level altogether.

So sniggering at 'fishy' descriptions and hoisting prosthetic bosoms seem removed from them parodying women. Well, it is men with none of those body parts doing that.

The men on the Black and White Minstrel Show didn't have that colour skin like the DQ's don't have women's bosoms.. The Minstrels didn't actually look like black people either. Just make up and wigs So would black people also be wrong to find dressing up like that an unacceptable parody?

Yes, I agree, why is one rightly offensive and the other not, especially when drag, unlike the appropriation of black hairstyles, is done expressly to humiliate and degrade women.