Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I don't find drag paricularly offensive but I'm mystified about what the point is.

Oh the Keith lemon link is a 5 sec clip. Where he's got a hideous mask on and is supposed to be Mel b and hahaha 'she' says her genitals smell.

The point in that the view of women is across men. 2D reductive stereotypes. The same 'jokes'. The same attitude.

Tbh when it was in gay clubs ok whatever I know it's a part of gay culture.

Having it mainstream prime time TV is a different matter.

I remember my dad laughing uproariously at 'cupid stunt'. And I didn't like what was in the screen, same as I didn't like it when so much comedy had men 'dressed as women' for laughs. It always made me uncomfortable. When I was 8 I didn't know why. But I always felt it. It's taking the piss out of women. Same as panto. It's bonding over laughing at women.

I know lots of people disagree. 40 years later I still don't like it. Drag race. Lolita. FFS. Yes let's all pretend it has nothing to do with the book. Adult men dressed as little girls for the Lolita challenge or whatever. Yay??!! Family viewing!

Yeah I thought I'll have a look to check it's not changed since I was young. Nope. Worse than I was expecting tbh.

but drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se.

The concept is not benign if it exploits the belief that women were never fully human in the first place.

Have men ever needed to organise to oppress women?

Tbh when it was in gay clubs ok whatever I know it's a part of gay culture.

That is a bit like saying child marriage is ok because it is part of their culture. Of suttee was ok in India because it is cultural. Or womrn freezing to death in menstrual huts because it is cultural.

The fact that gay culture is abusive towards women means the culture is wrong and must change, not that suddenly abusive attitudes towards women is ok.

@OppsUpsSide

One of my favourite ever films is Kinky Boots, on the back of that I thought drag was lovely 🤷🏻‍♀️ I know believe it is deeply misogynistic and I do equate it with black face.

Yes, Kinky Boots is interesting. I saw the stage play.

I had mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand, there is a bit in the play when the drag queen - can't remember the character's name - appears for the first time out of costume. As a man, he is suddenly very shy and vulnerable, completely different from his diva-like on-stage persona.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self.

It's a heartwarming tale and I did enjoy the show. I agree that his act probably was a 'celebration' of femininity/womanhood as the argument goes.

And yet - even at its best, drag doesn't sit right with me. It's not acceptable to do it for any other class of people that has traditionally been the oppressed/non-dominant class - yet women are fair game.

But you know what, it's an act. No one take any of it seriously

Yet it remains very unpalatable for a lot of women......and at the same time does nothing to challenge stereotypes ( which is what we're told it is all about). All it does, I'd suggest, is re-affirm cliches & stereotypes about gay men, and tropes about female sexuality and female bodies.

I suggest it survives, simply, as a relic of gay men's struggles in the past, but has now solidified into a lumbering parody of itself.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self

But why is 'his true self' not the shy man? Many of us wish we were extroverts but are not and require something (often alcohol) to take us 'out of ourselves'. That doesn't mean being an exhibitionist drunk is 'being our true selves'.

I know several friends whose parents have developed dementia. One feature of early dementia for some is the removal of inhibitions. These elderly parents have become nasty and treat their children appallingly whilst they desperately try to care for them. Is this their 'true self'?

Why was Rachel Dolezal heavily criticised for self-identifying as black, yet males self-identifying as women are protected to the extent that anyone challenging their claims gets cancelled?

Why do the same people who would be up in arms over 'cultural appropriation' feel they must support the appropriation of womanhood by men?

Scientifically speaking, there's less difference between Rachel Dolezal and a black woman than there is between a man & a woman.

Totally agree about drag being misogynistic though.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive.

But drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se

But using terms such as 'slag', 'slapper', 'worn out old hooker' does perpetuate the contemptuous attitude towards female sexuality, and it hurts and offends women who are exposed to it, for the reason women have suffered this kind of abuse, in real life, forever.

Drag has just become a cliche of itself. there is nothing new, and all that remains much of the time is even greater offence as drag artists search for innovation.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive

And there are some that don't.

The fact that gay culture is abusive towards women means the culture is wrong and must change, not that suddenly abusive attitudes towards women is ok

Drag came about in quite different times, when it was perfectly mainstream to portray sexually active women as 'slags' and so on.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self

I'm going to suggest that it was not so much his " true self" as a parody of what gay men are supposed to be like. The true self lies behind that show. The 'show' is a mediation of social expectations.

It's a heartwarming tale and I did enjoy the show. I agree that his act probably was a 'celebration' of femininity/womanhood as the argument goes

I'd suggest what it 'celebrates' is not so much womanhood, as the societal focus on the deviant aspects of gay sex; and the idea that gay men are less than men or less than manly ( they are really women/feminine, who are naturally inferior etc).

By emphasising sex and sexuality ( in drag acts) so much, it is supposed to be a big 'fuck off' to social judgements and to the male male rejection of gay men. Problem is, it does that by appropriating the abusive terminology used by men to demean women.

I have a friend that does drag he sees the whole process of changing his appearance as an art form or skill. He's fantastic at it and there's certainly nothing in it to suggest he's mocking women or disgusted by us. There's also a drag show near me that mimics loads of female entertainers - spice girls, Adele etc. I've seen the show and it really feels like the performers are celebrating singers they love.

I've also on holiday seen one that fits the descriptions I've read on here. Mocking this idea of a disgusting hyper sexual woman. I was fairly young and one of the performers on stage slapped me as part of the act. It fucking hurt and I remember feeling the pressure to laugh along as I'm sure it didn't look to the audience like a man slapping a woman but that's what it was.

It's just like a lot of things in life I suppose it's a lot more nuanced than good or bad. Some people do it to celebrate women end some to mock whereas I can't think of any time I've seen black face and thought about the performer 'wow they just love black culture' even the frequently mentioned RD actually gained access to a specific but high profile employment pool through her time impersonating a black woman.

There's also a drag show near me that mimics loads of female entertainers - spice girls, Adele etc. I've seen the show and it really feels like the performers are celebrating singers they love

Yes, this is what we're constantly told; that it is mimicry born out of love and appreciation. And the idea that all gay men love a diva - which is an over-blown presentation of a certain kind of stereotypical femininity. It is a huge send up; but most often in sending up in plays into certain reinforcements around gender.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive

"And there are some that don't."

@Justhadathought of course there are some people who don't agree with anything we might care to discuss!

"Some people" also might think it's worth considering where we might cause offence to other women & try not to.

..but most often plays into certain reinforcements

Possibly the nearest comparison would be the 'Black and White minstrel show'. But the cruel parody of womanhood is even more exaggerated as the men do things like hoist fake boobs etc. I don't thing the B&W minstrels had prosthetics.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive

There are black women who do not find the comparison offensive, and who can see parallels. There are parallels.

Some people" also might think it's worth considering where we might cause offence to other women & try not to

Rather than avoiding making any comparison, for fear of offence, it is surely better to engage and discuss, as we are doing here. Nothing should be off the table for discussion. Talking about parallels is not in itself an offence.

slate.com/human-interest/2015/02/is-mary-cheney-right-about-drag-being-like-blackface.html

An interesting piece, written by a man who performs drag.

@Justhadathought agreed there are parallels.

Trying not to cause hurt to black women is not "off my table" either.

Trying not to cause hurt to black women is not "off my table" either

Discussing an issue, or drawing parallels, in itself, is not offensive. Nothing can be unpacked if nothing is up for discussion and analysis.

We can unpack whatever we like & still be mindful of hurt we may cause.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Anyway I have made my point & am off now 🖤

So often claims of offense are used to shut women up: it is offensive to not allow men in your changing room so shut up and budge over; it is offensive to say gay culture shouldn't be allowed to be misogynistic; it is offensive to men for a woman to say no to them; it is offensive to liken womanface to blackface...