Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

”As a white person I too did not understand the scandal about white personalities wearing dreadlocks and then I read an article on BBC news site about the history of black hairstyles and the discrimination black people have suffered just because of their hair. It was fascinating and made me very ashamed of my previous attitude.”

I don’t want to derail from this very interesting drag discussion but I have to say I don’t believe dreadlocks can be claimed as a solely black hairstyle as so many cultures and countries have worn them, today and historically. Perhaps I am biased as my white friend now has dreadlocks down to his knees having worn them for 35 years and yes I do believe he too has been discriminated against for wearing them. Also I am wary of believing things the BBC say these days!

I don’t want to derail from this very interesting drag discussion but I have to say I don’t believe dreadlocks can be claimed as a solely black hairstyle as so many cultures and countries have worn them, today and historically. Perhaps I am biased as my white friend now has dreadlocks down to his knees having worn them for 35 years and yes I do believe he too has been discriminated against for wearing them. Also I am wary of believing things the BBC say these days!

In honesty I hold the same opinion about dreads, though I do agree about other things that are more specific to black culture.

@VoodooQueenofthebayou

It isn't appropriate to equate it to blackface. If you look into the history of blackface performance in the context of America, it was used as a early tool to dehumanise black people by the Klu Klux Klan and promote the Jim Crow laws. At the back of blackface was the implicit threat of lynching and oppression as a means to control the characters portrayed in blackface shows in the South. It is a deeply sinister and oppressive practice. Sadly ignorance and lack of thinking enabled it to go mainstream on TV shows in the 50s,60s and 70s where it became normalised and socially accepted. Thankfully it has been recognised for what it is.

I don't think you can compare it to drag as it doesn't involve the systematic oppression and removal of civil rights of another group. The argument may be that woman have had to fight for their rights throughout the ages and this is true, but drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se.

That said, I do not like drag at all and it really saddens me that the BBC is promoting it so strongly through its programming. For me, it is an inaccurate stereotype being promoted that encourages negative forms of behaviour. I don't like that misogynistic language is normalised (bitch as a term of addressing someone else for example) and the hyper sexualisation of the female form as being the only thing of value. I don't believe that the liberation of men putting on an affectation of being a woman is a positive thing for society. The hedonistic enjoyment of one doesn't mean its good for all.

I see what you're saying about the history, it does colour it. Although I'm not sure that the history of drag - gay men using misogyny to fight homophobia - particularly means women should find it not offensive? And is everyone who accepts that blackface is offensive fully aware of all of this history? Or do they just think the concept of parodying an oppressed group is clearly offensive in itself - and in this case how is drag different? Or is it just that they accept it is offensive because black people say so - in which case surely women can say drag is offensive too?

I’m curious if it’s one of those things that the wider society finds acceptable and then it might be denounced later on?

Some people say drag is just a form of comedy

Drag is the mocking and belittling of an oppressed group (women) by their oppressor (men).

It is akin to blackface.

I used to find it funny and harmless. It’s been a long time since I thought that.

Any " art" that describes women as " tuna" and fishy because it thinks women's genitals stink of fish is not just a form of comedy. It is the patriarchy degrading women which then allows it to reat us badly as we are lesser beings.

treat

@334bu

Any " art" that describes women as " tuna" and fishy because it thinks women's genitals stink of fish is not just a form of comedy. It is the patriarchy degrading women which then allows it to reat us badly as we are lesser beings.

Then why can Amy Schumer go on and on about how stinky her vagina is? I mean she said her “p-ssy. . . smells like a small barnyard animal. Not a f-cked-up llama, but a goat at a small petting zoo.” She then compared going into her vagina with the slime world of Stranger Things. And in a podcast she said marriage had turned her vagina into “street trash”

Is it that you don’t think men should make vagina jokes? Or no one should? And what about dick jokes? Women make those all the time regarding size, crooked or not, ugly, dangly ballsacks, etc. Is that for men only to joke about and women should stop? Or should we all just make joking about genitals a no go zone and stick to jokes about farts.

Is it that you don’t think men should make vagina jokes? Or no one should?

Is it that you think white men should be able to make jokes about black people? Or that black people shouldn't laugh at themselves?

@Tibtom

Is it that you don’t think men should make vagina jokes? Or no one should?

Is it that you think white men should be able to make jokes about black people? Or that black people shouldn't laugh at themselves?

Hah hah...the old conflate it with racism chestnut. Not comparable.

Answer the question. And this one too, if men in drag didn’t make jokes about vaginas, would that make it ok?

Do you mean if men dressed up in makeup and flamboyant clothes that didn't attempt to mock or mimic women, didn't tuck, use padding etc and then didn't have a misogynistic act where they made offensive so-called jokes about any aspect of women's anatomy or behaviour or were in anyway derogatory towards women then would it be ok?

Why is it not comparable to racism?

It is ok for able bodied men to joke about disabled men? Mock their speech, their use of wheelchairs, or tremor?

In general making jokes about the group you're in is ok while making jokes about groups you're not in, especially if they have a history of oppression that goes on today, is different.

You must know this surely?

There have been plenty of telly progs where eg women, gay people, Asian people take the piss out of their own group. Which would be totally out of line coming from another group.

Do you think I dunno. Goodness gracious me or gimme gimme gimme would have been ok done by other types of people?

Yes. It’s regressive and offensive. It uses over the top stereotypes and misogynistic language to dehumanise an already oppressed group.

@ExitChasedByABee

I’m curious if it’s one of those things that the wider society finds acceptable and then it might be denounced later on?

Some people say drag is just a form of comedy

might be denounced later on

Doubtful. Its target is females. No one gives a shit.

Is it that you don’t think men should make vagina jokes? Or no one should? And what about dick jokes? Women make those all the time regarding size, crooked or not, ugly, dangly ballsacks, etc. Is that for men only to joke about and women should stop? Or should we all just make joking about genitals a no go zone and stick to jokes about farts.

The disingenuity is strong in this one.

Perhaps Amy Schumer could try making crude and offensive ‘jokes’ about gay men and their genitals, and we can see how that flies.....

@NiceGerbil

In general making jokes about the group you're in is ok while making jokes about groups you're not in, especially if they have a history of oppression that goes on today, is different.

You must know this surely?

There have been plenty of telly progs where eg women, gay people, Asian people take the piss out of their own group. Which would be totally out of line coming from another group.

Do you think I dunno. Goodness gracious me or gimme gimme gimme would have been ok done by other types of people?

There is no comparison whatsoever with the Goodness Gracious Me or Gimme, Gimme, Gimme team making rather gentle comedy against themselves out of stereotypes which have an element of truth in them and the nonsense quoted on here by Amy Schumer.

Going on about smelly female genitals is no less idiotic and offensive just because a woman "jokes" about it.

So you can't see that people who aren't from that community making jokes like in goodness gracious me would be different?
Or that two straight men making the jokes in gimme gimme gimme would be different?

Well ok if that's how you feel. Unusual view tbh.

The disingenuity is strong in this one

The posters being disingenuous are the posters trying to justify rubbish like this from Amy Schumer

On her vagina’s natural scent:“On its best day, my pussy smells like a small barnyard animal. Not like a big, f—ed up llama chewing and spitting. A little, like… a goat. That’s on its best day. On its worst day, after a blackout, ISIS. It’s f—ed up, guys. It’s bad.”

The hypocrisy is stunning. It is quite right to get angry about misogynistic men joking about the smell of female genitals but waiving away garbage like the above because "in general making jokes about the group you're in is ok" is not "ok" as far as I'm concerned.

@NiceGerbil

So you can't see that people who aren't from that community making jokes like in goodness gracious me would be different? Or that two straight men making the jokes in gimme gimme gimme would be different?

Well ok if that's how you feel. Unusual view tbh.

Who are you replying to?

Goodness, Gracious Me and Gimme , Gimme, Gimme are fine. I've said that.

Amy Schumer making unfunny "jokes" about smelly vaginas- absolutely not fine, if anything even worse than a man doing it.

You would honestly be ok with white men joking about stereotypes and playing up to them in the same way as is done in goodness gracious me?

And a straight man performing a gay man as on gimme gimme and a man making jokes about the woman as portrayed on gimme?

You wouldn't see that as racist/ homophobic/ misogynist?

I think that's s really unusual view but obviously it's yours and so that's how it is.

@NiceGerbil

You would honestly be ok with white men joking about stereotypes and playing up to them in the same way as is done in goodness gracious me?

And a straight man performing a gay man as on gimme gimme and a man making jokes about the woman as portrayed on gimme?

You wouldn't see that as racist/ homophobic/ misogynist?

I think that's s really unusual view but obviously it's yours and so that's how it is.

Who are you replying to?

If it's to me I can't make any sense out of your last 2 posts.

I haven't said anything about white men etc , etc. I said it's fine for the Goodness Gracious Me team and Gimme, Gimme, Gimme team to make jokes about themselves.

@NiceGerbil

You would honestly be ok with white men joking about stereotypes and playing up to them in the same way as is done in goodness gracious me?

And a straight man performing a gay man as on gimme gimme and a man making jokes about the woman as portrayed on gimme?

You wouldn't see that as racist/ homophobic/ misogynist?

I think that's s really unusual view but obviously it's yours and so that's how it is.

And if this was in reply to me you have put up a whole battalion of straw feminists.

The posters being disingenuous are the posters trying to justify rubbish like this from Amy Schumer

This is not me - I absolutely agree with you. I’m not justifying AS’s humour (how desperate for material is she??), and I don’t think drag queens making offensive jokes at our expense is OK either.

Trying to role out female comedians making vile jokes as a way of excusing it is sad. But for me, personally, it’s definitely somehow worse when other groups of people do it.

Just as gay men and drag queens would be up in arms if straight women were making offensive jokes about them and their genitals.

Again, just get better material. Stinking genitals? That’s really the best you can do....?

Of course there is a difference between someone discussing their own genitals in comedy and a group of people parodying women and making jokes about women’s genitals.

A woman making poor taste jokes about her body is not the same as a person from a group of people belonging to the sex class that oppress women making derogatory jokes about women’s genitals.