Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

Widow Twankey is not the same sort of performance or even in the same realms of entertainment as Anna Bortion and JonBenet but maybe there is some confusion between the two, for some.

I'm not confused.

Kitty Demure is not confused.

I don't think drag has anything to do with femininity. It is a highly sexualized representation of women, veering towards the pornographic. It is a very undignified representation of women. I don't like it. My bank (in Canada) used a drag queen to push a credit card in an on line ad that I kept getting. I complained through my branch and got a phone call from a regional exec. He indicated some sympathy but said young adults weren't bothered by it. It is the drip drip drip of the erosion of boundaries.

@JediGnot

"I also think one of the things that makes drag sting so much as a woman is the fact that it's actively praised for being progressive."

Good point. As if anything that re-enforces gender stereotypes is progressive.

Which brings me back to the parallels with the trans issues at the moment.

With trans I supported trans rights unquestioningly, then started asking questions... why is identifying as a woman different from identifying as black? Why do gender based rights trump sex based rights? Do you even acknowledge the potential for gender rights to impinge on long fought for sex based rights? What does identifying as a woman even mean?

My experience was that almost every response involved insults and accusations of bigotry. Trans activists actually attempting to answer pretty much never happened, and answering with a modicum of reason literally never happened.

I've never really thought much about drag before today... the more I have read on this thread the worse drag looks... partly because lots of women are making good points, but mainly because the "drag is not misogynistic" side of the argument has a 100 insults to zero well-reasoned arguments, and that's a pretty poor ratio that suggests there ain't ever gonna be a counter-argument coming.

Absolutely agree with all of this.

There has been a definite theme of women being left behind and let down by movements designed to champion other marginalised groups.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out

Oh. and this is another great example of that distraction and deflection

Not really, I think the poster has a point there in a way.
If I name change, I only have to post once or twice and you have people calling you he, or American if you post after midnight (that was a particular bizarre one that I remember for being so weird lol)
You get people all jumping in to try and discredit what you're saying as you must be a bot, or male, or some such nonsense.
That's been my experience anyway, and seems others too on some level

Drag exists to poke fun at negative stereotypes of women. Fishy vaginas, bitchy, cold-hearted, caked in make up and slutty, tasteless clothes etc.

When we have mainstream entertainment with women dressed up as men, wearing string vests, perving over tits and arses, drinking beer and knocking 'her indoors' about for not having tea on the table, then I guess that would be equality. Only no one would find that funny, especially men.

And yeah, all very highly sexualised. Men portraying women as bitchy, slutty, tasteless objects for the nation's entertainment. No thanks.

When we have mainstream entertainment with women dressed up as men, wearing string vests, perving over tits and arses, drinking beer and knocking 'her indoors' about for not having tea on the table, then I guess that would be equality. Only no one would find that funny, especially men.

French and Saunders did that many years ago. It wasn't very funny, though the point was well made....

I've always hated drag, mostly because it's based on hate. The subtext is that women must be mocked and belittled and are then told that "it's only a joke" when it's nothing of the sort.

Drag is also deeply, deeply boring. Ooh, a man has put on a massive wig and a kilo of slap along with a padded bra then a shiny plunging dress no natal woman would consider ever, let's have a sing song and a laugh for three hours - no. Any possible appeal fades after about a minute of inane humour and tedious double entendres.

It's just awful in so many ways.

Not caught up sorry.

Fyi there are loads of Jonbenet queens. I had a quick Google when I first heard about it. It's a 'thing' don't know how else to put it.

I don't watch the prog on the BBC but one night I was a bit pissed and thought well I should have a look in case it's not as bad as I think it will be.

Note for me, the whole panto dame/ drag thing has always made me uncomfy from when I was little. It wasn't til I was much older until I realised why!

Anyway there was a load of the whole stereotype bitchy stuff while getting ready and then it was 'lolita'.

And I just said oh for fucks sake.

The arguments that this style is nothing to do with the book is just such utter bollocks that I'm hoping no one puts that argument!

One was 'depressed up' as a little girl iirc.

And I said fucking hell and switched over.

Anyone remember bo selecta?

Mel b on hols.

I know he was crass but I did watch it after the pub. I remember all those years ago being at this even given the other stuff.

Minge kicking off a right pong...

What is it with men? Is another question.

Gay straight whatever. And it is kicking down even in the men who do it are gay.

www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xqkeb

Why do drag artists always look like worn-out hookers?
That’s not something that most natural women aspire to.

Never really found Keith Lemon funny, so Bo Selecta I purposefully skipped as thought a migraine or root canal surgery would be preferable to watching it lol

At least pantomines are widely viewed as old fashioned

Oh no they're not!

Oh no they're not!

Sorry still catching up.

Just saw this post which I know others have responded to.

' If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. '

What... Just. What?

'comically slutty women'. Slutty meaning having sex with lots of men.

Who is it that is obsessed with the virgin/ whore thing? Which women are 'slutty'? Women who get paid for sex. Women/ children who are groomed and society dismisses them as sluts. (Rotherham the girls were seen by authorities as 'child prostitutes). Women and girls having a very common reaction to rape/ sexual abuse (take power back). Women who like having sex with men. And that makes them a slut.

Ok so far so good.

Boobs bouncing fully out of their clothes. Why always always this focus on tits? It's such a male gaze thing. That is shit for women. Too big too small. Get shouted at. Get them out. Big breasts are always seen as somehow both sexual and very obscene. By men. They must be tethered. They are... Seen as both very sexual even if on a girl, and also somehow too much, ridiculous. Why are men so weird about breasts. They're fetishised, essentially. Great for those who have them and can't take them off.

Another black one? So that's a joke about not just being promiscuous, but sleeping with black men. Erm. Bit racist? Lot racist. Is this from the 70s?

Slutty woman has no care for babies. Throws them away. Nice.

And on the black baby thing. Women around the world and forever had all sorts of consequences of having a baby by the 'wrong' father. Or having them at all out of certain circs.

I imagine this joke must be referencing the ww2 history:
www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/mixed-race-babies-born-after-the-second-world-war/

Or is it just saying that women who are white sluts are racist and happy to murder their newborns?

Funniest thing eh?

I suppose the answer will be you're reading too much into it...

Nah it's misogynist tripe. A man performing this has fuck only knows what view of women.

'worn-out hookers?'

That's a revolting comment.

I have caught up so not followed so well who is saying what..I don't know what your opinion is. But that is a gross shocking and revolting thing to say.

What makes you think it's ok to say that?

Have you even thought about what you're saying? The women around the world you're referencing? The girls? The totally male view of how much value a girl or woman has? The dehumanising?

What makes you think that's ok. Seriously.

Sorry for raft of comments.

Occurs to me the following.

Why is it funny for men on a stag or similar to wear dresses etc?

Why is it a thing in gay male culture to caricature a certain stereotype of woman, a set of stereotypes that in general men like to apply to women in general/ categorise and judge us by? And girls too.

Why do so many straight men share 'porn' that is little or nothing to do with sex and everything to do with women being degraded, doing things that are revolting to most, doing things that they are not enjoying.

All of these things are about men bonding over a shared view of women, and it's not a positive one. Bonding over putting women in their place. Over misogyny.

This post from earlier on is interesting:

VoodooQueenofthebayou Fri 21-May-21 09:21:27
It isn't appropriate to equate it to blackface. If you look into the history of blackface performance in the context of America, it was used as a early tool to dehumanise black people by the Klu Klux Klan and promote the Jim Crow laws. At the back of blackface was the implicit threat of lynching and oppression as a means to control the characters portrayed in blackface shows in the South. It is a deeply sinister and oppressive practice. Sadly ignorance and lack of thinking enabled it to go mainstream on TV shows in the 50s,60s and 70s where it became normalised and socially accepted. Thankfully it has been recognised for what it is.
I don't think you can compare it to drag as it doesn't involve the systematic oppression and removal of civil rights of another group. The argument may be that woman have had to fight for their rights throughout the ages and this is true, but drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se.

But the above applies to women, it’s just like that. Drag is the systematic oppression of another group; women, our rights are being removed. I see it as a targeted attack (especially Drag Queen Story Time) They’re not necessarily after you but they are pumping this at your children during prime time mainstream TV where it has become normalised.

Most people just haven’t wised up to it yet or recognised it for what it is.

@NiceGerbil

'worn-out hookers?'

That's a revolting comment.

I have caught up so not followed so well who is saying what..I don't know what your opinion is. But that is a gross shocking and revolting thing to say.

What makes you think it's ok to say that?

Have you even thought about what you're saying? The women around the world you're referencing? The girls? The totally male view of how much value a girl or woman has? The dehumanising?

What makes you think that's ok. Seriously.

That stood out to me too, and thought worn out hookers was a vile way to reference a woman. Wasn't sure how to verbalise though, but yes, think the dehumanising aspect is the way to go and along the lines of what I was thinking! I know it's not a majority view on here, but this is kind of why I think women should be able to express themselves how ever the fuck they like, and so should drag queens. We're not all the same, we're all individuals, and I find someone saying looking like a worn out hooker just as offensive as the comment earlier in the thread about women not wearing make up not being feminine. How about we all just do ourselves however we like to "present"?! Doesn't make us any less of a woman or whatever

@Quaggars

Never really found Keith Lemon funny, so Bo Selecta I purposefully skipped as thought a migraine or root canal surgery would be preferable to watching it lol

Same. Never understood his appeal, and from the clips I've seen of Bo Selecta and Celebrity Juice, we haven't missed much.

We actually agree on something, Quaggars

@Ereshkigalangcleg

We actually agree on something, Quaggars

Yay!!

One of my favourite ever films is Kinky Boots, on the back of that I thought drag was lovely 🤷🏻‍♀️
I know believe it is deeply misogynistic and I do equate it with black face.

@DenisetheMenace

Why do drag artists always look like worn-out hookers? That’s not something that most natural women aspire to.

There's a certain irony in posting that comment in a thread about how drag is offensive to women.

I like a drag Queen act. I like the
Man we see in Greece when we go.

He's offensive, he's risqué and he's a showman.

He's funny. We all know what to expect it's not child friendly.

But you know what, it's an act. No one take any of it seriously.