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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Drag and misogyny

716 replies

SnowWouldHelp · 20/05/2021 22:50

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 16:08

How do you feel about Drag Kings

Historical? See upthread

Nowadays - not seen any, but a quick google doesn't reveal any particularly over egged depictions of masculinity. It seems to be visually more nuanced.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:08

That's nonsense

Are you at aware of how dismissive you are coming across?

What has been told to you is not nonsense.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 16:09

How do you feel about Drag Kings How do you feel about them @Quaggars @yeahbutnaw

Are they in any way offensive to males? Do any men object to them in the way women ofbject to drag queens?

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 16:11

Strangely a minority view on Mumsnet. Bravo Sheerheight for not conforming to the hive-mind.

Alternatively, comiserations to you for conforming to the comparatively larger hive mind that is the people that defend this.

Your self awareness and ability to spot hypocrisy in yourself is vanishingly low.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:11

Can you tell us another one? Do you have time

I've been exposed to live drag since I was 16 years old, when my best friend ( gay male) would take me to the Vauxhall Tavern. He has a drag act himself now, and was effectively responsible for creating the whole gay clubbing scene in Cambodia - where many gay men still feel expected to, and do, marry.

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/05/2021 16:12

Strangely a minority view on Mumsnet. Bravo Sheerheight for not conforming to the hive-mind.

People having a different opinion to you is a ''hive-mind''?

Has it come as a surprise to you that the majority of feminists on a feminist board find misogyny offensive?

RedDogsBeg · 21/05/2021 16:12

What about drag queens who are not in the gay community, what abot the heterosexual male drag queens or the trans fem drag queens? From Drag race alone there are 8 trans women acts: Sonique, Peppermint, Carmen, Jiggly Caliente, Kenya Michaels, Gia Gunn, Monica Beverly Hillz, Stacy Layne Matthews. Not sure how it is drag if TWAW, it's very logically inconsistant, but how does your "it's just feminine gay men performing their inate feminity as a fuck you to society because society has rejected them for it" narrative play out with straight men doing drag?

It doesn't fit their argument AdHominem so they will just ignore it.

Drag revels in misogyny as do those who watch and support it, it's viewed as an acceptable way to demean and ridicule women, and people wonder why women are thought so little of in society in general.

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 16:14

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

It is. I am also arguing that this group of performers seem to embrace this and get away with it.

Explain

Sure. When you have given more than distraction and deflective answers. You really haven't addressed any issues.

But you have resorted to telling us all we are phobic here again. It is a tactic I have seen you use plenty of times before.

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:16

@Helleofabore

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

It is. I am also arguing that this group of performers seem to embrace this and get away with it.

Explain

Sure. When you have given more than distraction and deflective answers. You really haven't addressed any issues.

But you have resorted to telling us all we are phobic here again. It is a tactic I have seen you use plenty of times before.

How much a hive-mind Mumsnet must be if I've made that much of an impression when I barely use the site.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out.

doadeer · 21/05/2021 16:17

When I was at university I studied a lot of about homosexuality in 18th century. I could be a little fuzzy on some aspects of it but I do think the origins of drag are relevant, though of course it has transformed enormously in the hundreds of years since.

"Molly Houses" were popularised during this period as a place where homosexual men could meet to engage in sexual contact and conversation. Many of these nights included drag but it was very much a challenge to the patriarchy and the cultural norms of masculinity. Even the word Molly was a discriminatory word for an effeminate man. They would enact marriage ceremonies and typically female sphere activities. I don't believe in anything I read that it was about mocking women. These men wanted to reject the gender rules because they didn't fit in to what was expected of a man.

I still think now it's more a rejection of patriarchy rather than about mocking women...
But 100% I hate the term fishy.

LolaSmiles · 21/05/2021 16:17

yeahbutnaw.
I know you're very busy putting women in their place and telling them to put up and shut up, but I'm still interested in your argument that drag is about freeing gay men from oppression.
I can't help but notice that you've successfully avoided these questions twice already, unless I missed your reply.

  1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

And to add a few more:

  1. How demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. Why exactly are you seemingly obsessed with telling women to put up and shut up?
LolaSmiles · 21/05/2021 16:18
  1. How does demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
334bu · 21/05/2021 16:19

You're talking about the terminology used by some gay men who do drag. That's very different.

So that's all right then. Only some call women offensive humiliating names and all the rest say " Just a minute that's not acceptable" Oh wait a minute no they don't, they try and justify these bullies by calling it art or a fight against oppression. It's hate ....hatred of women. Should be a crime but wait misogyny is deliberately excluded from hate crime legislation because women don't count.

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:23

@LolaSmiles

yeahbutnaw. I know you're very busy putting women in their place and telling them to put up and shut up, but I'm still interested in your argument that drag is about freeing gay men from oppression. I can't help but notice that you've successfully avoided these questions twice already, unless I missed your reply.
  1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

And to add a few more:

  1. How demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. Why exactly are you seemingly obsessed with telling women to put up and shut up?
These aren't things that are inherent to drag, so why do they merit a response?

Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thing. That's a logical fallacy.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:23

How much a hive-mind Mumsnet must be if I've made that much of an impression when I barely use the site

You've found yourself in a hive of people who reject negative and confining gender stereotypes; especially as they relate to women.

Women who dislike quite intensely the use of words and portrayals which have long been used to demean them, and to put them down.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 21/05/2021 16:25

When I search your username Yeahbutnaw. You appear on 15 threads over a 3 month period You are fairly prolific on those threads. I wouldn't call you an occasional user or a lurker. You do stand out, but it is not because of how suprising you views are.

We have a many regulars who seem to tag team to attempt to re-educate our wrongthink, plus we are not all confined to mumsnet.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:25

I still think now it's more a rejection of patriarchy rather than about mocking women

Yeh, we get that! But why then go on to use the terms used by that patriarchy to demean and insult women?

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 16:27

How much a hive-mind Mumsnet must be if I've made that much of an impression when I barely use the site.

You area actually quite a regular here and you know it.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out.

No. Your posts are not outstanding in anyway except in the complete lack of nuanced discussion and that they are never supported by evidence or considered discussion. The posts always seem to have the intention of shaming women.

The good is though, that often they highlight to readers exactly the weak points in your statements which are frequently 'all or nothing' and derogatory.

ArabellaScott · 21/05/2021 16:27

Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thing. That's a logical fallacy.

Nope. Drag has been criticised for it's overarching premise - males mocking women.

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:28

@Justhadathought

I still think now it's more a rejection of patriarchy rather than about mocking women

Yeh, we get that! But why then go on to use the terms used by that patriarchy to demean and insult women?

You might. 99% of the posters here don't even accept that view.

They would still oppose drag even if they were entirely mute.

ArabellaScott · 21/05/2021 16:28

*its

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 16:28

How much a hive-mind Mumsnet must be if I've made that much of an impression when I barely use the site.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out.

Oh. and this is another great example of that distraction and deflection. Thanks for not addressing any of the other issues in any depth.

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 16:29

yeahbutnaw

You mainly just stand out because you post over and over again but never answer anyone's questions, you just keep saying #notalldrag.

You're a thread hog, basically.

334bu · 21/05/2021 16:29

:23yeahbutnaw

**LolaSmiles

yeahbutnaw.
I know you're very busy putting women in their place and telling them to put up and shut up, but I'm still interested in your argument that drag is about freeing gay men from oppression.
I can't help but notice that you've successfully avoided these questions twice already, unless I missed your reply.

  1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

And to add a few more:

  1. How demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
  2. Why exactly are you seemingly obsessed with telling women to put up and shut up?

These aren't things that are inherent to drag, so why do they merit a response?

Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thing. That's a logical fallacy.**

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this! Drag is bad because it uses the humiliation of women as a way for some men to get back at other men who humiliate them. It is misogynistic to its core.

ArabellaScott · 21/05/2021 16:29

'everyone else' '99%'

You are fond of sweeping (and inaccurate) generalisations, hyperbole and the grand reach, aren't you? As well as the insults. Tedious.

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