Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@LolaSmiles

yeahbutnaw. I know you're very busy putting women in their place and telling them to put up and shut up, but I'm still interested in your argument that drag is about freeing gay men from oppression. I can't help but notice that you've successfully avoided these questions twice already, unless I missed your reply.

1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

And to add a few more:

1. How demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
2. Why exactly are you seemingly obsessed with telling women to put up and shut up?

I, too, would like to know the answers to these questions.

I wonder why one of the best-known Australian drag performers was known as Doris Fish rather than Doris Wombat or Doris Wallaby?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Fish

3. How does demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men

By portraying really offensive feminine stereotypes it makes them look very naughty. Like they don't give a shit if people think they are girly?

These aren't things that are inherent to drag, so why do they merit a response?
Because they are part of drag culture and you are repeatedly glossing over what many people are saying in favour of shouting people down and telling them they need to listen to men more.

Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thingThat's a logical fallacy.
See my first post where I said men wearing stereotypically female clothing and make up to perform is perfectly OK and I have no issue with that because clothes are just clothes.

Anyway, back to the problems within drag culture.

There is a lot of misogyny running throughout and you seem to be dismissing women's concerns by arguing they're homophobic, should listen to men, and that actually drag is a form of challenging oppression.

I'm curious how:
Stage names linked to abortions and miscarriage are fighting oppression of gay men
Stage names and content that demean women's sexuality fights the oppression of gay men
Acts that focus on narrow stereotypes of FEMALE behaviour fights the oppression of gay men
Content that mocks and ridicules female genitalia fights the oppression of gay men
Personas and Acts that promote a very hyper-sexualised and demeaning image of WOMEN fights the oppression of gay men

How exactly does punching down on another group fight oppression of gay men?

And, perhaps more interestingly, why are you so determined to tell women to put up, shut up, and listen to men?

*You might. 99% of the posters here don't even accept that view.

They would still oppose drag even if they were entirely mute.*

Oh, you're sure all 99%, are you? Not all posters have said that so it's a logical fallacy to mention it.

I'll repeat it loudly for the people in the back.

WOMEN are homophobic too. Straight people are the oppressors of gay people.

Not just straight men. Women too.

Stop trying to abdicate yourselves from responsibility for your own actions.

I'll repeat it loudly for the people in the back.
WOMEN are homophobic too. Straight people are the oppressors of gay people.
Not just straight men. Women too.

Stop trying to abdicate yourselves from responsibility for your own actions.

Oooh that's us told.
Naughty women discussing misogyny really ought to stop it and know our place.

Repeating something louder doesn't make it any more accurate, I'm afraid.

Point to the straight people, here, anyway.

'Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thing. That's a logical fallacy.'

You keep talking about a performer as if it is one-off examples. It's not. This is terminology and stereotypes which are used across the drag community. You are being deliberately disingenuous.

why are you so determined to tell women to put up, shut up, and listen to men?

And why don't you answer questions like the one above, but carry on mansplaining and barking orders such as 'Explain'?

@yeahbutnaw

I'll repeat it loudly for the people in the back.

WOMEN are homophobic too. Straight people are the oppressors of gay people.

Not just straight men. Women too.

Stop trying to abdicate yourselves from responsibility for your own actions.

FFS listen to people other than yourself!

Gay men are the oppressors of women too. It's men, not just straight men. Why do you think what you've said above is a trump card when it can be said right back at you?

Stop trying to abdicate yourselves from responsibility for your own actions.

You might. 99% of the posters here don't even accept that view

I think you'll find you are wrong on that. Many/most women here have long been gay allies.....via their friends, or their sons or other family members. Many have also felt very let down by many gay men in recent times, as the loyalty shown does not seem to be reciprocated.

You are being deliberately disingenuous.
Of course they are.
Why engage with a discussion about misogyny and misogynistic attitudes of men when you can shout at women, tell them off, and tell them to listen to men more?

< Some women find drag offensive because of the misogyny we often see >

''No it isn't!''

< We give examples of drag misogyny and downright cruelty, eg making jokes out of miscarriages and using the unique name of a murdered child >

''Well..well.. not all drag queens, take it up with the ones that say that shit!''

< We talk about the ones that say that shit >

''Omg, you homophobes!''

Another day, another 'women with an opinion that isn't the same as mine are all terrible meanies, and if only you listened to X you'd see the error of your ways'🙄

Shall we get back on the discussion on why the drag culture supports such deep misogyny?

The attempts to deflect and distract are getting really ridiculous now.

@yeahbutnaw

I'll repeat it loudly for the people in the back.

WOMEN are homophobic too. Straight people are the oppressors of gay people.

Not just straight men. Women too.

Stop trying to abdicate yourselves from responsibility for your own actions.

Normal service resumed then, no argument, no answers, just slurs, shouting and demands to shut up and get over it.

You could take you own advice yeahbutnaw and stop trying to abdicate yourself from responsibility for your own actions.

Drag is misogynistic to it's very core.

@Helleofabore

Shall we get back on the discussion on why the drag culture supports such deep misogyny?

The attempts to deflect and distract are getting really ridiculous now.

Yes, please.

[quote Shedbuilder]I wonder why one of the best-known Australian drag performers was known as Doris Fish rather than Doris Wombat or Doris Wallaby?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Fish[/quote]
Hmm. Curious.

Another interesting article here, MK Fain:

4w.pub/is-drag-misogynistic/

' The shameful reality is that men have little motivation to listen to women they aren’t trying to fuck. Our complaints largely go ignored.

If we want to see more good drag that truly allies with women, gay men need to hold their communities accountable for the sexism they perpetuate. Drag is just the start.'

I'm appalled at what has happened to Shedbuilder and the drag movement definitely needs to consider the overall attitude and police themselves, but if you somehow banned them from wearing dresses those individuals would still be nasty bastards.

They would, but they wouldn't get so much of a free pass to do it to women, and it wouldn't be seen as progressive.

I don't care if men want to spend 8 hours dressing up as one of Cinderellas ugly sisters and trowelling on 1KG of putty filler.

What I do care about is the language they use. It is highly offensive.

Hang on, so any criticism of drag is automatically homophobic?

Drag artists can talk about women's genitals being disgusting and 'fishy', make jokes about women's 'tuna tube', use names like 'Anna Bortion, Cheryl Hole, Malestia Child', name themselves after murdered little girls, perform fake abortions as part of their 'hilarious' drag act, wear fake comedy breasts, take the piss out of women as part of their act, caricature the stereotype of women being 'bitchy'....

And we aren't allowed to object to any of it because that is 'homophobia'?

Sorry but Fuck. Right. Off.

With that yeahbutnaw insults women who discuss misogyny and flounces out the metaphorical door, having conviently refrained answering questions of substance related to the debate.

How long till the comeback?

And another.

Mentions Danny La Rue. Makes me think now how much drag has changed over the past few decades.

www.vice.com/en/article/vb9yb9/uk-drag-scene-misogyny