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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Drag and misogyny

716 replies

SnowWouldHelp · 20/05/2021 22:50

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:51

The only drag queen I know on a personal level is a straight male. I am not keen as some of his drag persona is his own and his act gives him free rein to vent it all.

I have often thought to pity his wife and kids (1 daughter).

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:53

@CuriousaboutSamphire

The only drag queen I know on a personal level is a straight male. I am not keen as some of his drag persona is his own and his act gives him free rein to vent it all.

I have often thought to pity his wife and kids (1 daughter).

Riveting.

Can you tell us another one? Do you have time?

Waitwhat23 · 21/05/2021 15:54

Fishy is a common word used within the drag community and is insulting in the extreme to woman.

You can minimise that all you like. It doesn't make it less true.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:55

Is that ... a threat?

I'm not sure how you managed to interpret it in that way?

You seem to think you are talking to this 'mumsy' population that has never been to a drag show, never been around the gay scene, and who, somehow, have led these very sheltered lives.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:56

You're not talking about drag. Well, we are!

You're talking about specific terms that are used by people in the gay community. Find them offensive? Fine. Talk about them. People will probably agree. I'd never assume the gay community speaks about women like that. Mainly because half of it is female! Or is that your own bias again?

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy". Erm, it's a staple of drag. Has been around for decades. And is indicative of the general tone.

That's nonsense. Well, you said it!

334bu · 21/05/2021 15:57

Yes, because when they are in drag it is a character.
Just like in acting, whether on the stage or on your telly.
They're not saying they actually are a woman.

No they are just choosing to adopt a parody version of an oppressed group to hit back at other men . Typical bully behaviour someone picks on you, so rather than fight them because you might lose, you pick on a person weaker than you and humiliate them instead.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:58

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy"

No, I'm saying that quite often drag queens have highly sexualised names that include such offensive words ; and I'm telling you that lots of women really find, and have always found, most drag to be very distasteful, as too often it relies on perpetuating ugly images of women, their bodies and their sexuality.

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/05/2021 15:58

How does suggesting that female genitalia is smelly and ugly liberate gay men? It merely plays along with, and encourages foul abuse of women. It's not funny!

Yup.

And how does naming yourself after a 6 year old girl who was murdered or making fun of the utter agony that are miscarriages stick it to the homophobes who mock gay men, exactly?

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:59

@CuriousaboutSamphire

You're not talking about drag. Well, we are!

You're talking about specific terms that are used by people in the gay community. Find them offensive? Fine. Talk about them. People will probably agree. I'd never assume the gay community speaks about women like that. Mainly because half of it is female! Or is that your own bias again?

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy". Erm, it's a staple of drag. Has been around for decades. And is indicative of the general tone.

That's nonsense. Well, you said it!

No, you're really not.

You're talking about the terminology used by some gay men who do drag. That's very different.

If drag queens stopped using the word Fishy tomorrow, would you suddenly be okay with them? Or would you find yet another reason that you dislike them?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 16:00

Oooh! What is up with you?

Why is it offensive to you that some of us do actually have a wide variety of friends, are old enough to have seen how various cohorts have changed over decades (and even over a century) and won't back off just because you disagree?

Quaggars · 21/05/2021 16:00

That's a very masculine way of reading that!

There's no words lol

Note to self - don't read in too masculine a way.

Mumsnet. All about breaking down gender stereotypes.

Oh.. wait.

Yep!

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 16:00

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy".

yeah.... not just one. But nice try at deflection and minimisation.

By the way. ANY performer using that term should be very ashamed of themselves for their overt misogyny.

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:01

@Helleofabore

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy".

yeah.... not just one. But nice try at deflection and minimisation.

By the way. ANY performer using that term should be very ashamed of themselves for their overt misogyny.

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

Instead, your argument is "Drag is bad". Explain.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 16:01

Oh, team tagged! Gaaaaargh! I surrener Grin

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:02

Is this the internet version of "Don't you know who I am?!

No, it is the internet version of " stop portraying all women who dislike drag in such a flat, one dimensional way. you know nothing about the lives and experiences of the many, many people who post here.

So far, we had gay male oppression explained to us, as if for the first time; and we've been instructed that we are being 'mad' for disliking drag. You'd think you were talking to your 'maiden aunt' - Virgin Bottomley. good drag name, no?

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 16:03

*You're talking about the terminology used by some gay men who do drag. That's very different.

If drag queens stopped using the word Fishy tomorrow, would you suddenly be okay with them? Or would you find yet another reason that you dislike them?*

So it's "not all drag artists", is it? That doesn't work for white people about racism, or straight men about misogyny. It's more than enough drag acts to be an endemic problem in the genre.

As to what would make them suddenly ok - if they stopped referring to their characters as women I would have no issue with them.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 16:03

I can't keep up!

Sorry @yeahbutnaw but that makes no sense. THIS is a thread about drag and misogyny.

That's is what we are discussing.

Not crocodiles or alligators and misogyny.

Or male hegemony in general!

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:03

@Justhadathought

Is this the internet version of "Don't you know who I am?!

No, it is the internet version of " stop portraying all women who dislike drag in such a flat, one dimensional way. you know nothing about the lives and experiences of the many, many people who post here.

So far, we had gay male oppression explained to us, as if for the first time; and we've been instructed that we are being 'mad' for disliking drag. You'd think you were talking to your 'maiden aunt' - Virgin Bottomley. good drag name, no?

How do you feel about Drag Kings?
RedDogsBeg · 21/05/2021 16:03

How many times do we see gay people object to the stereotypical portrayal of themselves by straight actors.

Care to answer that Quaggers? After all they are only acting they are not saying they are gay.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:03

That's a very masculine way of reading that!I read it as "Yet again you are ignoring what specific posters are telling you. That we are all one Lump of Woman as far as you are concerned." You are unaware of the online persona of the poster you are responding to

Precisely!

Sheerheight · 21/05/2021 16:04

Personally no i don't find it offensive . Neither do I find it entertaining. I didn't find the chippendales entertaining when I saw them on a hen do years ago.
Live and let live.

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 16:05

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

Because drag acts are the only people who get away with using this language. Everyone else is, rightly, called out for it.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 16:05

How do you feel about Drag Kings

i don't have any specific feelings about drag kings, because i've not had enough exposure to them. I'm imagining though that the masculine portrayals are not so negative or contemptuous?

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 16:05

@Sheerheight

Personally no i don't find it offensive . Neither do I find it entertaining. I didn't find the chippendales entertaining when I saw them on a hen do years ago. Live and let live.
Strangely a minority view on Mumsnet. Bravo Sheerheight for not conforming to the hive-mind.
AdHominemNonSequitur · 21/05/2021 16:06

"You're not talking about drag.
You're talking about specific terms that are used by people in the gay community. Find them offensive? Fine. Talk about them. People will probably agree.
Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy".
That's nonsense."

Indeed. "Not all drag Queens". I'm sure some parody only the positive aspects of femininity and steer away from the reproductive side of things.

It isn't a one off reference to "fishy", multiple examples have been given of acts that use this or similar.

What about drag queens who are not in the gay community, what abot the heterosexual male drag queens or the trans fem drag queens? From Drag race alone there are 8 trans women acts: Sonique, Peppermint, Carmen, Jiggly Caliente, Kenya Michaels, Gia Gunn, Monica Beverly Hillz, Stacy Layne Matthews. Not sure how it is drag if TWAW, it's very logically inconsistant, but how does your "it's just feminine gay men performing their inate feminity as a fuck you to society because society has rejected them for it" narrative play out with straight men doing drag?