Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex. Who typed that?

As Soap said - the GC understanding is that gender is based on societal mores, stereotypes not biological sex.

So Feminine, not female
Masculine, not male

The characteristics a society ascribes to a sex class not the biological reality of gametes, bodies etc. Gender changes with society and over time. Sex doesn't change.

I don't think many GC feminists are entirely blank slate about gender. I think the bimodal distribution by sex of pretty much any physical or psychological charateristic you care to name attests to the fact that there are differences between the sexes as a population whole, but that at an individual level any given person could be more or less "masculine" or "feminine" than the opposite sex average and it doesn't make them less a man or less a woman. We could debate it, but it would be a derail. So I will rephrase and say "Mumnets entire worldview is that gender is bullshit and men can be feminine and and women can be masculine."

femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men

Can you describe what you mean by 'femininity'?

Sorry if there are too many 'innies' in there, I get stuck.

*Your argument is that "all drag is misogynistic".

I disagree.

If you reframed as, "drag can sometimes be misogynistic" you wouldn't get the same reaction. Nobody's denying that misogyny exists. People are disputing the rubbish here that all drag is misogynistic.*

My argument is that drag as a concept is pretty misogynistic. If they want to portray their "feminine" side there is absolutely no need to refer to themselves as women whilst doing so. That implies you are portraying actual women, not an extreme version of yourself, and that is something that in reality you have no experience of and, as another oppressed group, we do not need to be made light of by you. It's tone deaf at best.

The performers will obviously vary in terms of how misogynistic they are, but all of them would be better allies to women if they did not refer to themselves as such whilst performing.

And yet they choose not to listen, and accuse women of not listening to them, instead 🙄 No change there, women are used to being told to shut up and listen to men. But the hypocrisy is astounding.

Ooh, matron!

I guess this is some kind of cultural reference here that I don't understand.

Whataboutism. Like saying, "What women are speaking out in favour of fathers who don't get to see their children as often as they'd like?" That's what you're doing.

No. That is a false equivalence and quite a weird one at that. It would be like someone identifying that there is a massive cultural issue in their industry and not talking publicly about or trying to do anything about making cultural changes in the industry.

It would be nice to see a drag queens speaking out against misogyny. But to be honest, they've got enough to speak out against.

Again. There is that 'these people have enough to deal with without them dealing with the fact that their industry is rife with misogyny'.

Tell us then.... when would be a good time for performers in that genre of entertainment to deal with the fact that they, or if not them individually, there colleagues, are perpetuating hate against women?

@Justhadathought

Drag queens don’t claim to be female

But they are routinely referred to as 'she', even when not performing.

Yes, because when they are in drag it is a character. Just like in acting, whether on the stage or on your telly. They're not saying they actually are a woman.

I will take that rephrase and will add it to my post, becasue I thinkt the basic/simplistic point still needs to be made for any newbies. But I will modify it AdHominemNonSequitur

They're not saying they actually are a woman. Yeah, cos I go round pointing at my (often vajazzled) minge screeching "fishy fishy", wearing glitter gowns and 2 foot stilettos!

Jesus wept! How many times!

By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant

I don't think you are aware of who you are talking to.

Next you'll come up with a drag act which mocks the mad cow who likes a shag even when she's 'on'. Let's call her Mad Shagger.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

They're not saying they actually are a woman. Yeah, cos I go round pointing at my (often vajazzled) minge screeching "fishy fishy", wearing glitter gowns and 2 foot stilettos!

Jesus wept! How many times!

Who was it who asked for examples of homophobia?

They're not saying they actually are a woman

You don't say!

Draq queens are referred to in the third person 'she' in in reviews. If it was any other group it would be called 'appropriation'. But because it involves gay men, it's fine.

@Justhadathought

By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant

I don't think you are aware of who you are talking to.

Next you'll come up with a drag act which mocks the mad cow who likes a shag even when she's 'on'. Let's call her Mad Shagger.

Is that ... a threat?

Yes, because when they are in drag it is a character.
Just like in acting, whether on the stage or on your telly.
They're not saying they actually are a woman.

.... Yes, so their drag characters are misogynistic. What is the point in this distinction? - it changes nothing.

How many times do we see gay people object to the stereotypical portrayal of themselves by straight actors.

I don't think you are aware of who you are talking to

Is this the internet version of "Don't you know who I am?!" Errrr, we're all on an anonymous chat forum here lol, are we supposed to bow down or do a Wayne's World "We're Not Worthy!" pose and/or suddenly change our opinion if we were to know who?!

Who was it who asked for examples of homophobia? What? You think a critical review of a standard drag queen act is itslef homophobic?

And doesn't that presuppose that all drag performers are gay? I though we/they had transcended that these days?

What has happened to you recently? I am sure you used to have more 'bite' than this!

@Quaggars

I don't think you are aware of who you are talking to Is this the internet version of "Don't you know who I am?!" Errrr, we're all on an anonymous chat forum here lol, are we supposed to bow down or do a Wayne's World "We're Not Worthy!" pose and/or suddenly change our opinion if we were to know who?!

Bingo.

That's a very masculine way of reading that!

I read it as "Yet again you are ignoring what specific posters are telling you. That we are all one Lump of Woman as far as you are concerned." You are unaware of the online persona of the poster you are responding to!

Hint: go and check which posters have told you they are gay!!

It's been enlightening to read the experiences of lesbians and how they have been treated within/by the drag scene. It's given another viewpoint into the obvious misogyny and distaste/mockery of women.

I don't think you are aware of who you are talking to

Some random person on the internet, perhaps?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

That's a very masculine way of reading that!

I read it as "Yet again you are ignoring what specific posters are telling you. That we are all one Lump of Woman as far as you are concerned." You are unaware of the online persona of the poster you are responding to!

Hint: go and check which posters have told you they are gay!!

Mumsnet. All about breaking down gender stereotypes.

Oh.. wait.

Your argument is that "all drag is misogynistic"

Not necessarily, just most of what we have seen.

'Slag', 'whore', 'slapper' and so on are not words which women find neutral or inoffensive. They hurt deeply and are an expression of male contempt.

How does suggesting that female genitalia is smelly and ugly liberate gay men? It merely plays along with, and encourages foul abuse of women. It's not funny!

That might have been the point we have been making .. for years!!!

Note I said 'masculine' not 'male'.

Yet again - not a Gotcha!

I want to dispute the assumption that all drag queens are gay men. I think there are a significant number of straight men.

*Mumsnet. All about breaking down gender stereotypes.

Oh.. wait.*

Jesus, all this deflection to avoid addressing how women actually feel about gay men calling themselves women and portraying cruel, stereotypical views of them. It's almost like you don't want to focus on that bit...

Mumsnet. All about breaking down gender stereotypes

You don't break down gender stereotypes by playing on really demeaning negative portrayals of women and their sexuality for entertainment.

@Justhadathought

Your argument is that "all drag is misogynistic"

Not necessarily, just most of what we have seen.

'Slag', 'whore', 'slapper' and so on are not words which women find neutral or inoffensive. They hurt deeply and are an expression of male contempt.

How does suggesting that female genitalia is smelly and ugly liberate gay men? It merely plays along with, and encourages foul abuse of women. It's not funny!

You're not talking about drag.

You're talking about specific terms that are used by people in the gay community. Find them offensive? Fine. Talk about them. People will probably agree.

Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy".

That's nonsense.