Page 12 | Drag and misogyny

SnowWouldHelp · 2021-05-20T21:50:49+00:00

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

greatauntfanny · 21/05/2021 15:17

@Helleofabore

I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person.

Could you please clarify this? Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?

It's like going up to someone wearing trainers and saying 'Excuse me, but Adidas use sweatshops, and by wearing those you are personally contributing to the suffering and exploitation of impoverished women and children, take those off right now you bastard'. The problem is further up the line.

And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer. What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?

Maybe drag does need to do more to recognise it's inherent misogyny. In fact, having read posts from lesbians who have been mocked by queens, it absolutely does.

So, no other posts from other women made you think.... ah... yes. That does cross the line.

But it shouldn't be shut down. There must be a middle ground

Sure, but again.... which performers are even acknowledging that misogyny exists in their genre?

"Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?"

No, if they make a directly misogynistic remark, that would be their personal responsibility (although I assume our interpretations of what constitutes misogyny differ). I take issue with the idea that drag itself is inherently misogynistic and so anyone doing drag is a misogynist.

"And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer."

Ooh, matron!

"What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?"

Whataboutism. Like saying, "What women are speaking out in favour of fathers who don't get to see their children as often as they'd like?" That's what you're doing.

It would be nice to see a drag queens speaking out against misogyny. But to be honest, they've got enough to speak out against.

"So, no other posts from other women made you think.... ah... yes. That does cross the line."

I don't know what you're talking about here because you've said this in response to me saying I have taken into account the posts of women and accept that there is an element of misogyny in the drag community and it should be challenged.

@Shedbuilder
I'm not a drag queen, no 🤦‍♀️

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:17

@aSofaNearYou

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women

The ide that gay men aren't misogynistic is a laugh. Just because your friends claim they aren't doesn't mean there aren't misogynistic gay men.

It's ... not a competition?

Some gay men are misogynistic.

Some women are homophobic.

Both things can be true.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:18

@yeahbutnaw

Just another day on Mumsnet.

"I'm not homophobic BUT..."

Yeah! BUT if you could just bring yourself to repsspond to some of the questions, points put to you...

... we would all be ever so grateful

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:18

@yourhairiswinterfire

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people

My brother is gay and also thinks drag is misogynistic. He absolutely hates it.

Should I listen to him, or is he the wrong kind of gay man?

Well you probably shouldn't base a worldview on what one person thinks?

That's not listening to gay man. That's listening to a gay man. Singular.

Get it?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:19

Respond ffs!

New keyboard and whilst I can now see all the keys the backspace sticks

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:19

@CuriousaboutSamphire Challenging! My last post seems to have sent the homophobes into a frenzy. I can't keep up!

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 15:19

@yeahbutnaw

Just another day on Mumsnet.

"I'm not homophobic BUT..."

Just another day on for yeahbutnaw. I'm not misogynistic BUT....

Are you ever going to address the blatant, gaping double standards in what you're saying?

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:19

I think it's misogynistic. I completely disagree with those who say it celebrates women. It doesn't

For certain!

The images portrayed are often vulgar and grotesque, and also most often highly sexualised in a way which relies on 'slapper', slag', 'whore' stereotypes. There is nothing celebratory about it.

To me it encapsulates the alienation and often repulsion that gay men feel towards women and their bodies.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:19

Yet more DARVO!

You have that down absolutely pat!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:20

[quote yeahbutnaw]@CuriousaboutSamphire Challenging! My last post seems to have sent the homophobes into a frenzy. I can't keep up![/quote]
Not sure which thread you are referring to. Do you have a link?

BraveBananaBadge · 21/05/2021 15:20

@334bu I wouldn't say people largely perform in drag to humiliate women though - to @JediGnot too, I think in a lot of cases it's a form of expressing a feminine side. Maybe I'm wrong on that and I always read threads on this issue to take things on board.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I'm aware of the history and significance of Strange Fruit and am not placing the version I mentioned over any others in importance or merit, it was just an example that sprang to mind.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:22

Yes, absolutely. I've always hated drag

Me too! My friend used to take me along to 'Duckie' at the Vauxhall Tavern when it first started out. He thought it was wonderful! I knew I was supposed to enjoy it; but never did. Have always found it really distasteful and crude.

aSofaNearYou · 21/05/2021 15:23

*It's ... not a competition?

Some gay men are misogynistic.

Some women are homophobic.

Both things can be true.*

Eeerm, yes? And yet you're the one completely denying that gay men are behaving in a misogynistic way. When women speak up and say "the way you are portraying us is misogynistic, I'd like you to stop", YOU call THEM homophobic, and tell them they are not listening to gay people?? You literally cannot make that level of irony up. You are the ones not listening.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:24

I think in a lot of cases it's a form of expressing a feminine side

It is, but of the dark, shadow variety. a really negative feminine. I think a lot of gay men are possessed by a negative female anima ( Jungian term for the shadow feminine in a man)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:25

I'm aware of the history and significance of Strange Fruit and am not placing the version I mentioned over any others in importance or merit, it was just an example that sprang to mind. Ah! When I saw it I was wondering how much he was going to appropriate. Turns out it was all of it!

And the "Yeah" between stanzas was REALLY offputting, weirdly celebratory!

I am surprised that anyone knowing the history of the song found it at all palateable!, video included! We get admonished for appropriating the suffering of black people enough here without being pointed towards a well off black male doing the same and seemingly being celebrated for it!

yeahbutnaw · 21/05/2021 15:26

@aSofaNearYou

*It's ... not a competition?

Some gay men are misogynistic.

Some women are homophobic.

Both things can be true.*

Eeerm, yes? And yet you're the one completely denying that gay men are behaving in a misogynistic way. When women speak up and say "the way you are portraying us is misogynistic, I'd like you to stop", YOU call THEM homophobic, and tell them they are not listening to gay people?? You literally cannot make that level of irony up. You are the ones not listening.

Your argument is that "all drag is misogynistic".

I disagree.

If you reframed as, "drag can sometimes be misogynistic" you wouldn't get the same reaction. Nobody's denying that misogyny exists. People are disputing the rubbish here that all drag is misogynistic.

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:27

Drag queens don’t claim to be female

But they are routinely referred to as 'she', even when not performing.

SunsetBeetch · 21/05/2021 15:28

@yeahbutnaw

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

I'd like you to refer to @TiltTopTable 's post above. What do any of those things, frequently utilised by drag queens, have to do with gay men's oppression?

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 15:28

@yeahbutnaw

Just another day on Mumsnet.

"I'm not homophobic BUT..."

Please do report any homophobia that you find.

ArabellaScott · 21/05/2021 15:28

So you are a singular gay man, yeahbut?

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:29

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people

And gay men could listen to women, too.

ArabellaScott · 21/05/2021 15:30

Bit confused by the accusations of homophobia. Where?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/05/2021 15:30

People are disputing the rubbish here that all drag is misogynistic. Or explaining why the moment a man dons his female suit and goes off to perform he is, by very defintion, being misogynistic.

If he was a good performer, funny, political, etc, he wouldn't need the clown female suit. He could make his point without reference to a hyper sexualised feminine form!

Justhadathought · 21/05/2021 15:31

Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men

I'm not buying this explanation.

The negative feminine portrayals are often highly sexualised and in a way which promotes the slag , whore, tart cliches; which many women feel really very offensive....because they've had these terms used on them many times, and they are not remotely funny.

Interestedparty132 · 21/05/2021 15:32

@aSofaNearYou

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women

The ide that gay men aren't misogynistic is a laugh. Just because your friends claim they aren't doesn't mean there aren't misogynistic gay men.

I never said that though. Gay men can of course be misogynistic. I just said drag is not comparable to blackface. Gay men aren’t the direct oppressors of women either in that they aren’t the ones directly benefiting from housework or childcare in the same way that straight men are and they aren’t the ones committing rape and sexual assault.