Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@334bu

*By all means, stay mad and stay ignorant.Nobody cares. Gay people don't. They'll keep doing drag to fight oppression in ways that they see fit.The world will keep spinning.* Women will keep dying . Girls who menstruate will still be banished to freeze in huts to save men from having to endure the stench of their genitals. Men will continue to humiliate women to get back at other men . The world will keep spinning and drag will still be totally and utterly misogynistic.

Perspective, my London based gay mate (with power and influence and a job earning £170k a year), reports he does feel a bit judged and gets some sidelong glances when he snogs his boyfriend at National Trust Properties in front of small town pensioners...no one says anything, but he senses they disaprove. So I'm sure he is grateful that drag exists to fight against this oppression.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that gay men are not more opressed than women in the west in 2021.
I'd fucking swap in a heartbeat.

You sound like a very angry man
Lol, that's ridiculous - is there a way that women are supposed to speak now, or is it because the poster did an unladylike swear?!
Must be a man, too angry sounding to sound like a woman!
Funny how if it's a GC voice on here sounding angry or whatever, it's ''women don't have to be kind!' '
If it's an opposite opinion,' 'it's you sound like a man!'

@Interestedparty132

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface. Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

Yes I demand my right to feel more repressed In the repression Olympics we as a society seem to indulge in. As a side note where does Mrs brown's boys fit in?

Seriously they are both as offensive or inoffensive compared to your pc outlook on life.

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women.

@Quaggars

You sound like a very angry man Lol, that's ridiculous - is there a way that women are supposed to speak now, or is it because the poster did an unladylike swear?! Must be a man, too angry sounding to sound like a woman! Funny how if it's a GC voice on here sounding angry or whatever, it's ''women don't have to be kind!' ' If it's an opposite opinion,' 'it's you sound like a man!'

I think it was the misogyny

@AdHominemNonSequitur, that's brilliant?

Yes, for as long as there's one woman left in the world who thoughtlessly introduces a gay friend to their mates with the appalling homophobic slur 'this is my gay friend', drag will have continue its brave and stunning fight against oppression.

@greatauntfanny

Ultimately I don't think there's one type of drag, or drag artist.

I think the vast majority are gay men who find comfort and kinship in outwardly displaying the feminity they probably struggled with as a child (other children, especially boys, aren't known for historically being particularly welcoming to boys who are effeminate). They probably did (and still do) receive a lot of abuse for non being your stereotypical manly man, and having 'feminine' interests like dance, sewing etc.

To then create and display an act that is based on extreme stereotypical feminity is in that sense an act of bravery. They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Of course not all drag queens are gay and not all gay men like drag, but for those who do: have at it, I say.

I get why people think it's misogynistic (because they're often wearing boobs and talking about smelly fannies etc) and some women feel they're ultimately men punching down and mocking women for their mannerisms and bodies. I don't share this view. I would wonder how many people who have drag queens in their social circle would think what they're doing is mockery, rather than an exaggerated expression of one side of their character.

Society itself is misogynistic, otherwise 'feminine' men wouldn't face discrimination. Feminity and womanhood in general are widely seen as 'less' than masculinity and manhood. But I think that's a deeper issue, and accusing drag queens of perpetuating it is focusing energy on the wrong group. They don't need any more hate directed toward them. They're not the bad guys in this situation. If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is.

I really don't understand your post. How does reinforcing stereotypes and making fun of them in a really unpleasant way help women or effeminate men?

Society is misogynistic anyway, so let's have more of it? What.

And then you more or less tell us we don't have a good enough sense of humour after describing a horribly misogynistic and racist 'sketch'. I guess we're just not as cool as you, huh?

@Quaggars

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is
Exactly, patriarchy and toxic masculinity can affect both women and drag queens alike, so don't see how taking offence at drag is helping anyone as surely both are fighting the same thing.....

So express yourself. No need to have a woman persona while doing so.

Having an uncle of an age I have to admit I do know gay men who made fun of gay stereotypes.

Vada the chary strides on omi ajax

Or the Clockwork orange speech - Polari/Nadsat

Being Scouse Nadsat was really understandable. My accent lends itself to mixing up words (I was in my 40s before DH told me that a lolly ice is actually an ice lolly or that khazi was not an everyday English word) and that the nickname I use for my nephew is also Nadsat - my malenky bogbbratty - he was a tad spoiled so "little god brother" was apt.

Burgess would have been familiar with Polari, even if it was dying out. Just as my uncle, illegal until in his mid 20s, would have known how to shush his butch ommes slap and shyckle afore trolling for fantabulosa chickens and omni polones, avoiding the Lillys etc.

Sometimes the 'progression' in any cohort of society is unpleasant and lacks the knowing humour of it's predecessors - whose repression was a damn sight more unpleasant than anything today!

Yes, for as long as there's one woman left in the world who thoughtlessly introduces a gay friend to their mates with the appalling homophobic slur 'this is my gay friend', drag will have continue its brave and stunning fight against oppression.

@BraveBananaBadge

"Can anyone point out any other benefits of drag? Does it make intelligent points, or help break down stereotypes, or help undermine bigotry and hate? Does it build up oppressed people?"

Sorry, can't figure out how to copy bits of quotes in bold.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

It goes without saying I condemn some of the crass and genuinely misogynistic type of queens previously mentioned, who mock their audience and put little effort into cruel jokes.

Let's list them -

Some drag performers make powerful political points as part of their acts.

Some drag performers raise money for good causes.

Some drag performers use music / theatre skills they have as part of their drag.

It seems to me that the latter two reasons have nothing to do with drag, they are co-incidental to drag. The same people could be doing that without doing drag.

So we are left with the powerful political points that some drag performers make.

Do the benefits of these points being made outweigh the misogyny which many women perceive as coming from drag?

Is drag needed in order to make the point, or at least to make it well?

I am happy to buy into the idea that some drag acts are wonderful and benefit society even if their act is basically misogynistic. Similarly there's a comedian I've seen a couple of times who (IMO successfully) made jokes about two of the least acceptable subjects in comedy.

But, based on your response, you are justifying a small handful of exceptionally clever and brave and moral drag queens, not drag itself.

@BraveBananaBadge

"Can anyone point out any other benefits of drag? Does it make intelligent points, or help break down stereotypes, or help undermine bigotry and hate? Does it build up oppressed people?"

Sorry, can't figure out how to copy bits of quotes in bold.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

It goes without saying I condemn some of the crass and genuinely misogynistic type of queens previously mentioned, who mock their audience and put little effort into cruel jokes.

Wanted to quote the above to give anyone who skim read it the first time the chance to read it again.

Many drag queens do an awful lot in terms of HIV support, anti-racism etc.

I've read through every comment on this thread, and I do agree elements of misogyny are woven into drag culture.

However - and this is the crux of it for me - I would never go up to a drag queen who was having a blast performing as a woman and say 'I find what you are doing offensive and harmful to women and I want you to stop' because on an individual basis, that's not how I feel. I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person. It's like going up to someone wearing trainers and saying 'Excuse me, but Adidas use sweatshops, and by wearing those you are personally contributing to the suffering and exploitation of impoverished women and children, take those off right now you bastard'. The problem is further up the line.

Maybe drag does need to do more to recognise it's inherent misogyny. In fact, having read posts from lesbians who have been mocked by queens, it absolutely does. But it shouldn't be shut down. There must be a middle ground.

Must be a man, too angry sounding to sound like a woman!

Or it could just be the fact they seem to wish to speak on behalf of all gay men combined with the completely ignoring any misogynistic element of drag.

The fact that anyone thinks that it is ok for women to be dehumanised and parodied for entertainment and that there is nothing at all wrong in the acts that we have discussed on the threads probably needs to think about what their intentions are.

People posting that degree of denial that this happens and stating that any of these acts highlighted are acceptable is probably coming from an agenda that is not pro-women at all.

I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person.

Could you please clarify this? Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?

It's like going up to someone wearing trainers and saying 'Excuse me, but Adidas use sweatshops, and by wearing those you are personally contributing to the suffering and exploitation of impoverished women and children, take those off right now you bastard'. The problem is further up the line.

And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer. What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?

Maybe drag does need to do more to recognise it's inherent misogyny. In fact, having read posts from lesbians who have been mocked by queens, it absolutely does.

So, no other posts from other women made you think.... ah... yes. That does cross the line.

But it shouldn't be shut down. There must be a middle ground

Sure, but again.... which performers are even acknowledging that misogyny exists in their genre?

Do you do a drag act, Great Aunt Fanny? There's something about the combination of your name and the complete irrationality of this:

However - and this is the crux of it for me - I would never go up to a drag queen who was having a blast performing as a woman and say 'I find what you are doing offensive and harmful to women and I want you to stop' because on an individual basis, that's not how I feel. I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person

Where do you think the misogyny comes from?

Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex.

Not really. They aren't based on biological sex at all. 'Gender' is based on stereotypes of what society deems 'masculine' or 'feminine', in the place and time it happens to be.

Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex. Who typed that?

As Soap said - the GC understanding is that gender is based on societal mores, stereotypes not biological sex.

So Feminine, not female
Masculine, not male

The characteristics a society ascribes to a sex class not the biological reality of gametes, bodies etc. Gender changes with society and over time. Sex doesn't change.

Article on misogyny in drag from a gay man.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/gay-men-lgbt-50th-anniversary-misogyny-rupaul-drag-race-fishy-queen-lesbians-a7862516.html

'I used to think it was my obligation to make disparaging remarks about female friends’ appearances and outfits. Especially if they weren’t glam enough'

Women are judged against the (yes, ridiculous) standards of femininity embodied to a cartoonish scale by drag queens.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

Just no compassion for women!!! Wait it's art , so it doesn't matter how many women are humiliated.

@Interestedparty132

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women.

Being homophobic doesn't necessarily equate to oppressing lesbian or gay people, though. It depends whether one has the power and agency to actually do any oppressing. Otherwise it's just an irrational prejudice that doesn't necessarily impact on anyone.

I mean, you can call 'micro aggressions' like 'here is my gay male friend' oppressing if you really wish, I think it's more useful to concentrate on the actions that have impact - actual literal violence, discrimination, slander, etc.

I was under the impression yeahbutnaw was a gay male? Have I misunderstood, are you just talking on behalf of gay males, yeah?

Funny how the original Strange Fruit, when copied by a man in drag, becomes moving. The original was deemed shocking and is the most moving version of that song ever recorded - for obvious reasons, he wrote it as a Jew seeing injustice and being haunted by a photograph, she recorded it having seen strange fruit and her father dying because he, as a black man, was truned away from hospital.

He wrote it under a pseudonym as it would have wrecked his career.
It did help wreck hers.

But it is a safe, brave and stunning choice these days.

Go figure!

Just another day on Mumsnet.

"I'm not homophobic BUT..."

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women

The ide that gay men aren't misogynistic is a laugh. Just because your friends claim they aren't doesn't mean there aren't misogynistic gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people

My brother is gay and also thinks drag is misogynistic. He absolutely hates it.

Should I listen to him, or is he the wrong kind of gay man?