Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

Thank you Cagedbird, I am still awake for now, depending on your definition of awake

Thanks so much Pole that’s made my day that you’ve forwarded on that consultation to your peers. It will take professionals and service users and patients in all the multiple areas of women’s health to speak up and tell government what is needed, to effect change.
Not only because the government hold the purse strings to the NHS but also because Parliamentarians will decide what legislative support may be needed around any of the issues raised in women’s health care. ‘Women’s health’ is so important yet so broad- so many differing needs and circumstances and life stages under that umbrella.

So thank you- it’s great to spread the word about alerting the government to the importance of work that I can bet you that they won’t know about or have considered previously. And once again thank you for the vital work you’re doing and for posting here about it.
Wishing you and your colleagues well wherever they practise and of course your patients too.

Didn’t see your most recent post before I replied to you Pole - but there’s a huge legislative aspect to opposing the normalisation that you mention. So once again- thank you for highlighting this government consultation and encouraging others to respond to it.

Thanks Pole.

You come across as very eloquent to me. But then I'm a gobby commoner so that might not be the compliment it was intended to be!

I have always taken my rights as a given. I’ve appreciated what women before me have achieved and I’m grateful but I’ve never given much thought to actually losing my rights. Why would I? I thought my sex rights were protected by the Equality Act. When I was pregnant, again my rights were protected by the Equality Act - I did not need to worry that I was going to lose my job or my status as a result of having a baby. When i play sport I know I’m not going to have to play against a male sexed person or come across a male in the changing rooms. Or I thought I wouldn’t.
Suddenly with the emergence of trans rights I am now threatened and I am losing my protections and safely. So now I am interested in women’s rights. So now I want to shout out.

However I’m silenced. I’m scared to be publicly vocal about it. I’m in the public sector. I have to follow the new rules of shut up woman. So this forum on MN is my go too. My catch up. It lets me know I’m not alone in this. I’m not going mad. I’m not a raving txxf. I just a woman that has woken up to what I could lose. And it’s a lot. Equal pay, privacy, safety, women’s sport, STEM, equal representation on groups etc etc.

I've been giving this some thought today because I've (as usual engaged on other threads about subjects like abortion in the US) and it's clear to me that the reason we spend so much time on this subject is because it's really bloody urgent that we do. The Stonewalls of this world are strategising about their stance - backed by large amounts of money - every day. They are lobbying behind the scenes all the time. Do those who accuse MN feminists of a narrow focus also accuse Stonewall of obsessing about eroding women's rights by relentless lobbying to change the law on self ID? Of course not. The reason we talk about it all the time is because there's so much to bloody do to protect women and girls.

As ever. When it comes to pushing back about things that will harm women and children. When it comes to saying no to us being stuffed into narrow roles. Globally. Being raped, exploited, taken for granted, subject to oppression and harm based on male centric religious rules, social norms, ideas about behaviour and worth.

It's women with little power, and large risk, who speak up.

Over and over. Knowing there's a good chance of imprisonment. Abuse. Death.

All of the mistreatment of women and girls everywhere should be social issues. They should be there in govt aims. They should be front page.

But no. Loads of girls getting sexually assaulted and raped in our schools?
Women's issue.
Girls getting groomed and raped on a mass scale in plenty of towns and cities.
Women's issue.
Rape prosecutions at an all time low?
Women's issue.
Met fucking up yet again this time letting one of their own abduct and murder?
Women's issue.

My view is that tbh. (Do I need to NAMALT).

And having been around for years.

Men don't care. Not interested. Not to do with them.
Yeah hear stuff about girls women etc but whatever. Not my problem. Not important. Don't even listen.
Women who speak up and go on and on and won't be cowed are usually older women. Annoying women maybe 40+ who will meet you eye to eye as if they think they're equal. And go on at you. That's bad. How can they be shut up? Younger women are generally much more amenable...

This current situation is basic. Men want something other men want to give it to them.
The crones who disagree are old and worthless and annoying. They should be suppressed.

And then I think.

I think of all the women everywhere who keep fucking fighting. Against vast amounts of shit globally. Every day. Working. No access to contraception abortion. Imprisoned, dying for things men do every day. Married off. Raped. Murderered by family. Denied education. Rape as a weapon of war.

Discoveries, bravery, atrocities in war against them. Not in the books. Written out.

So no. Women are nails and always have been.

This cannot stand. It cannot proceed. Not without suppressing 50% of the population.
And yes many go along with the thing. But.

Would the men be prepared to suppress us that strongly?

I dunno. Maybe. But women always have fought when they know the consequences. From the men in their own society. Their own men, as it were.

Men's enemies are over there.
Ours are right here in our lives.

I'm getting really fucked off with this now.

Men don't care. Not interested. Not to do with them.
Yeah hear stuff about girls women etc but whatever. Not my problem. Not important. Don't even listen.
Women who speak up and go on and on and won't be cowed are usually older women. Annoying women maybe 40+ who will meet you eye to eye as if they think they're equal. And go on at you. That's bad. How can they be shut up? Younger women are generally much more amenable...

Brilliantly put.
I'm fed up too.

Thank you Pole for the work you and your team do. It is appalling to hear that whenever you publicise what you do, you get the usual “inclusive” type people inappropriately trying to move in. We are fighting on so many fronts but you are clearly able to fight on the frontline. The damage done to women and girls through the practices you mention is huge. Thank you for spelling it out.

In my RL feminist group probably only about one person in five or so was very interested in GC issues, so I'm intrigued about why it's different on here

As you suggest earlier in your post, that is because many people have navigated their way here on account of it being, at one point, the only real place where such discussion was possible or permissible.

For such people, and I include myself in that number, this issue is the defining issue of our time, as it undermines the very concept of womanhood, on which every other issue is based.

Most people, including most women, are really only very slowly waking up to the fact this ideology has been working its way into our public bodies and institutions for a long time, and if it wasn't for the likes of this board and the energy and movement it has created, they might not even have become conscious at all.

Many people don't even question that it is an ideology; they jut go along with the defining narratives that are presented as fact.

@PoleToPole - just a question - am I right in thinking that throttling during sex has been removed as a legal defence for murder? Just a small step I know, but I seem to remember reading this.

In my RL feminist group probably only about one person in five or so was very interested in GC issues, so I'm intrigued about why it's different on here

So, do you think that people in your feminist group feel that they can discuss this freely? Or do they get the feeling that discussion is either not welcome or is received as hostile?

that was what I was wondering too Helleofabore. I would never raise this issue in real life with anyone outside of my family unless they raised it first (cowardly I know but most of my friends work in my sector and I cant risk my job). From what people post on here, many feminist groups in RL are TWAW and some have TW/NB members. University feminist groups are completely TWAW, as are organisations like the Womens Equality Party and the Fawcett Society.

If someone did raise it, would it be discussed reasonably or would they be told they were a terfy bigot who needs educating and/or told to leave the group?

Absolutely Kit. Or... were they quietly told to not turn up again so as not to alert people that they were suppressing free speech?

Hence, the other members would be oblivious unless they shared the same opinion and noticed what happened...

Yes, believe me, most of those who say they aren’t interested in discussing it or find it irrelevant are doing so because discussion isn’t tolerated. I don’t think many people are actually uninterested because these issues do attract a huge amount of attention. However if you think you will lose your job for saying what you think, you’re hardly likely to be very forthcoming about them.

I've been invited to join women's groups a couple of times over the last few years. I've asked a couple of questions about membership / criteria for joining / recent discussions and then said 'no thank you'. I haven't told them why.

[quote mollythemeerkat]@PoleToPole - just a question - am I right in thinking that throttling during sex has been removed as a legal defence for murder? Just a small step I know, but I seem to remember reading this.[/quote]
Molly I know you weren't asking me but I think a new offence of "non-fatal strangulation" has been introduced, which means even if the victim consented to it - if they end up hurt, it's still a crime. In the same bit of the new Domestic Violence Act 2021 there's a section called "Consent to serious harm for sexual gratification not a defence". Both relevant bits here:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/17/part/6/crossheading/offences-against-the-person/enacted

Most people, including most women, are really only very slowly waking up to the fact this ideology has been working its way into our public bodies and institutions for a long time, and if it wasn't for the likes of this board and the energy and movement it has created, they might not even have become conscious at all.

I think it was a real possibility this could have stayed under the radar. Just look at Canada, it's almost completely a silent issue there. Differences in the media are one reason, but also just lack of a place for women to connect is another.

I think the big wake up for lot of MNers - me, anyway, & I’m sure some others here - was back in 2015 when some of us were starting to notice something was a bit off, but then the new Women’s Equality Party tweeted in favour of a male prisoner without a GRC, in prison for assault, being moved to a women’s prison. Then they confirmed that yes, they really did mean it.

There’s been some great subjects come up on this thread so far and a good gauge of how people are feeling so good thread. In the last 48 hours there has been some fantastic threads on chat and AIBU, one was pulled but had some heart rending stories from infertile women and women’s autonomy over their own bodies, there is a trans debate about national hbot day and currently a Demi lovato non binary thread. They look like an online women’s lib March, mainly posters I haven’t seen on FWR making smart posts. This topic is getting more and more coverage and will keep being spoken about.

Gumbomambo

It is always a good gauge on how prominent this issue has become when you see those threads with so many very knowledgeable posters who are not regularly found here on FWR. Women are very much noticing the impacts and how wide they range.

mollythemeerkat & TheThermalStair - PoleToPole is in the States, so recents changes in the UK wont apply there. Not sure if anyone on FWR knows about US laws. Even though male acts of violence are horribly similar.