Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

Oh , @PoleToPole , that is heartbreaking . Thank you for doing it .
Do you ever look after girls and women who have suffered Female Genital Mutilation ? (I'm sorry to derail and please don't answer if you would rather not .)

I just thought. Actually.

The fact that any and all threads about women and girls having a terrible time should be on here is iffy.

Like in the media generally. 'women's issues' when in fact they're societal issues.

For a wider conversation on things which many women are interested in/ affects them. Then why not post in chat or politics or even AIBU? There may be other boards.

Because if it's something like the recent reports on sex offences in schools being brushed under the carpet. That's not a niche issue. It's an issue for everyone. And the majority of women on MN will hardly say that sounds like feminism take it away.

There's an idea maybe?

So, Nice, should I post the latest news on the US Supreme Court‘s assault on abortion rights (Roe vs. Wade) to the AIBU board then?

Well no I'm not saying what anyone should post where! It's the OP that's doing that.

Her suggestion is that anything related to 'GC' things should be in a new area so the fwr board will cover a broader range of topics.

I've pointed out that almost certainly isn't what will happen in practice and it's a hard no from me.

However she could start threads about things that affect women and girls, that she wants to talk about, on other boards. There's no rule against it and tbh on MN posters do take an interest in what's happening to women and girls around the world.

As to your question. Abortion rights are important to a lot of women. So I don't see why not post on another board. What would be wrong with that?

@deepwatersolo

So, Nice, should I post the latest news on the US Supreme Court‘s assault on abortion rights (Roe vs. Wade) to the AIBU board then?

🙄

Deepwater tbh I don't really get your post.

What would be wrong with posting it on AIBU if that's what someone wanted to do?

No idea.

There are threads about shit happening to women and girls, here and abroad, quite often on AIBU and chat.

I browse active a lot and read anything interesting.

AIBU to think the attacks on abortion rights around the world including USA and Poland are appalling?

Why not?

@Cagedbirdsinging thank you, and yes I do, although not often thankfully, at least not for the usual FGM "reasons" if you can call them that.
I do see a lot of mutilation of the genitals (and bodies in general) of females though - sickeningly I see that every day. The cruelty and depravity inflicted on women and girls, either deliberate or through lack of caring otherwise, never ceases to disgust me.

Just on the first page of FWR there are several important threads including the grooming gangs.

But that's unusual. I think I've only seen 3 GG topics on the whole board, maybe 4

So start some threads!

What's the actual complaint here at heart.

Is it that women who post on here don't actually care about anything other than this issue? Don't care about women and girls?

Ok well if that's what you think then that's up to you obv.

There are no rules about who starts threads where or what they post. Or whether it's the 'right' place or what it says unless it's obviously goady. And gets reported.

So what's the problem? Exactly.

Some posters don't like the way the board is. Ok.

Will starting a thread saying talk about something else change that? No. Many won't open it.

Will telling women off for but focussing on the approved topics help?
No. Because women can talk about whatever they want to talk about. Because telling women they're wrong to start threads about the things they personally are interested in is a bit odd. Because there are loads of women on here, esp given it's pretty much the only place this topic is allowed to be discussed and to treat all those women as somehow colluding.. or what? To talk about one thing. Rather than it simply meaning lots of women care enough and see enough in the news etc to start threads about it... Is weird.

I think I recognise your posting name don't I? I don't usually notice but sure we're on some other threads!

I can’t remember if it was mentioned upthread, but as the conversation has looped back round in that direction again, it occurred to me again that part of the reason that some topics that get robustly discussed are that they are the topics where women are working out what’s happening, what we feel about the topic, how we think about it and what we want to do.

So for example, someone posts about abortion. After thirty years of being a feminist, I know what my position is on that and, broadly, it hasn’t changed. I know the terrain that it covers- it’s usually conservatives and/or religious people and/or misogynists who are looking to curtail women’s bodily autonomy for cultural, religious or political reasons, and they launch an assault on reproductive rights in one form or another. I’m tapped into the networks that resist this, I understand the arguments and counter arguments, I know what my actions will be. There just isn’t, after many, many decades of this debate, that much left to say, for me.

But when a topic comes up about, for example, women who have been raped being viewed as acceptable collateral damage to validate someone else’s identity as a woman, rather than their needs and dignity being taken as absolutely paramaount, then shitting hell, I have a LOT to say about that. What do I feel about that? (Incandescently angry). What am I going to do about it? (Start organising, write letters, sign petitions, donate to anything that will resist the ideology that got us to this ridiculous point). How have we got here, and what do people who think like this want, and why? (So much to discuss, analyse, pick apart). I want to discuss this, sense check it, see what other people make of it. We’re all still figuring out what the reaction is.

So some topics get more traction because they’re new, they can be upsetting, and women often want to discuss them much more than “established” feminist topics, because there’s a lot more to say.

@Sophoclesthefox I agree. There are relatively few truly gender critical posts here. The majority are about the impact and fall out of genderist politics on women and girls. There is a lot of fallout.

VAWG is an established " feminist topic but how can one discuss safeguarding without mentioning the inherent dangers posed by gender self identification, the changing of single sex refuges, prisons etc to mixed sex facilities.
The pay gap between the sexes and the monitoring of sex discrimination.are also established feminist topics but how can we now discuss these without mentioning how gender self identification is skewing data.
Is there really any feminist topic which isn't in some way impacted by this?

KLAXON.... after Pole’s incredibly powerful contributions... please can EVERYONE who has not already done so, complete the government women’s health strategy consultation? You can respond as an individual, it doesn’t take long to do, there are survey questions and free text boxes for whatever you want to say. if you’re a group or professional you can submit up to ten pages

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/womens-health-strategy-call-for-evidence/womens-health-strategy-call-for-evidence#how-to-respond

Please share the link as widely as you can. I don’t need to tell anyone on here that there’s never been a government woman’s health strategy consultation before, nor that in the consultation document they’ve completely underestimated what ‘women’s health’ covers. Making it absolutely essential for everyone who can spare 5 minutes on their phone, to respond about what’s important to them.

And as Pole’s posts highlight, both for patients and professionals it shows ‘women’s health’ crucially includes women’s fundamental need for single sex specialist care to be provided and women to be able to be cared for in the absence of men. It needs to fund and support the specialisms of professionals like Pole and her colleagues.

But even the basics aren’t really covered or anticipated in this consultation making it all the more important that as many of us respond as possible, to say what’s important to us.

I noticed for example that in the consultation, the examples of women’s health care that the government survey includes, do not mention abortion care, while it does mention STIs, contraception, pregnancy and fertility care. It didn’t ask in any detail about need for care after sexual violence. The fact of single-sex healthcare being necessary for many female patients and professionals obviously wasn’t asked about.

Just mentioning those as an example.., there are so many others once you start looking at women’s health needs, including around GP and other HCP’s education, training, resourcing for professionals, disadvantaged women’s and EAL women’s access, access for women who have experienced violence, emergency women’s health care, girls healthcare including around FGM, menopause care, older women’s care including around domestic violence, women’s public/population health needs (including adequate women-only public, workplace and school toilet provision), rural women’s care, women in Northern Ireland who still can’t get abortions without travelling, research funding to generate evidence to modernise and improve all aspects of women’s health care, use of women’s health care data in health services planning, areas of healthcare for women that are subject to online misinformation and need professionals to be evidence-based in care of women, such as gender identity-related care and surrogacy and invasive cosmetic procedures. And of course it’s very focused on physical women’s health which is fundamental but only one part of women’s health.

Finally- when there’s a select committee response to the government Women’s Health strategy proposals, Pole could you and colleagues volunteer to give evidence to the MPs about your work? The facts of your compassionate and essential work and how you’ve been drawn back into the service and that your colleagues face challenges to remain in the profession would really hit home.
Civil servants briefing ministers and the MPs in debate about it almost definitely won’t know about these crucial areas of work at the level they need to, otherwise. Thank you again for what you do.

Is there really any feminist topic which isn't in some way impacted by this?

Probably not. Look at what happened with Hibo Wardere. We can’t even talk about whether it’s wrong to mutilate young girls’ genitals without being asked to stop to consider whether that’s transphobic.

I think we’re agreeing here, but you’re looking at it from a different angle than me.

Thanks @ChattyLion. Will do that.

@Sophoclesthefox

I can’t remember if it was mentioned upthread, but as the conversation has looped back round in that direction again, it occurred to me again that part of the reason that some topics that get robustly discussed are that they are the topics where women are working out what’s happening, what we feel about the topic, how we think about it and what we want to do.

So for example, someone posts about abortion. After thirty years of being a feminist, I know what my position is on that and, broadly, it hasn’t changed. I know the terrain that it covers- it’s usually conservatives and/or religious people and/or misogynists who are looking to curtail women’s bodily autonomy for cultural, religious or political reasons, and they launch an assault on reproductive rights in one form or another. I’m tapped into the networks that resist this, I understand the arguments and counter arguments, I know what my actions will be. There just isn’t, after many, many decades of this debate, that much left to say, for me.

But when a topic comes up about, for example, women who have been raped being viewed as acceptable collateral damage to validate someone else’s identity as a woman, rather than their needs and dignity being taken as absolutely paramaount, then shitting hell, I have a LOT to say about that. What do I feel about that? (Incandescently angry). What am I going to do about it? (Start organising, write letters, sign petitions, donate to anything that will resist the ideology that got us to this ridiculous point). How have we got here, and what do people who think like this want, and why? (So much to discuss, analyse, pick apart). I want to discuss this, sense check it, see what other people make of it. We’re all still figuring out what the reaction is.

So some topics get more traction because they’re new, they can be upsetting, and women often want to discuss them much more than “established” feminist topics, because there’s a lot more to say.

I agree with this. And that the misogyny underlining a lot of the issues is so blatant, it's difficult to get one's head around it.

Most people thought that women rights were progressing, and the trajectory would keep going forward. The fact is that, with a new generation, it seems to have leapt back decades.

Women could be forgiven for thinking that in 2021 rape, for instance, would be in decline and convictions would be prevalent. Not that convicted rapists would be offered incarcerated women as part of their sentence.

And all because they say they're not really male!

So some topics get more traction because they’re new, they can be upsetting, and women often want to discuss them much more than “established” feminist topics, because there’s a lot more to say.

Indeed!

Thanks for the link, chattylion, I finally filled it in this morning. Phew, that was cathartic!

Exactly. I can start up a conversation with my next door neighbour about abortion rights but there's only one place where I can talk about sex and gender issues without constantly looking over my shoulder and that's here. So guess what threads I pick up on?

Sorry cross post.

@Floisme

Exactly. I can start up a conversation with my next door neighbour about abortion rights but there's only one place where I can talk about sex and gender issues without constantly looking over my shoulder and that's here. So guess what threads I pick up on?

Exactly.

@Floisme

Exactly. I can start up a conversation with my next door neighbour about abortion rights but there's only one place where I can talk about sex and gender issues without constantly looking over my shoulder and that's here. So guess what threads I pick up on?

Me too. It’s literally the only place I am allowed to discuss these things. In real life, i risk losing my livelihood. It’s also an area where there appears to be little to no political interest in improving things for women so it is something that needs keeping under scrutiny.