Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

Which brings me back to my earlier question, which I don't think anyone answered so I'll ask it again. It's not particularly aimed at the op - anyone who wants can have a go:

Why is the rest of the Internet - and pretty much the whole of mainstream liberal media - not enough for you?
Why do you want this space too?

Feel free to report it, I’m sure I’ll survive

Oh get over yourself OP, I'm not going to report it. I was pointing out that FWR has its own special rules now.

(I admit I had no idea this was a recurring theme)

I am late back in but that @TheThermalStair is the root of your current problem.

You have lept in a shot your mouth off without actually getting a feel for the room!

Panic not. Many of us responding to you did something similar - I am sure I did, about 4/5 years ago. I was quite late in understanding what the problem is. I have trans friends and was horrified on their behalf and came here to say so. All you cruel, nasty women, be fucking nice why don't you?

But I have learned, have come to understand what I didn't see before. The changes in laws, the deliberate misinterpetation of various sex based protections and now the one that is most easily seen and understood - sport!

Take a step back, have a read round. Think about your own life... how much would you be affected if your employer had a Gender Policy and you spoke up to correct the wording? You might be suprised/horrified?

@Sophoclesthefox

I can’t remember if it was mentioned upthread, but as the conversation has looped back round in that direction again, it occurred to me again that part of the reason that some topics that get robustly discussed are that they are the topics where women are working out what’s happening, what we feel about the topic, how we think about it and what we want to do.

So for example, someone posts about abortion. After thirty years of being a feminist, I know what my position is on that and, broadly, it hasn’t changed. I know the terrain that it covers- it’s usually conservatives and/or religious people and/or misogynists who are looking to curtail women’s bodily autonomy for cultural, religious or political reasons, and they launch an assault on reproductive rights in one form or another. I’m tapped into the networks that resist this, I understand the arguments and counter arguments, I know what my actions will be. There just isn’t, after many, many decades of this debate, that much left to say, for me.

But when a topic comes up about, for example, women who have been raped being viewed as acceptable collateral damage to validate someone else’s identity as a woman, rather than their needs and dignity being taken as absolutely paramaount, then shitting hell, I have a LOT to say about that. What do I feel about that? (Incandescently angry). What am I going to do about it? (Start organising, write letters, sign petitions, donate to anything that will resist the ideology that got us to this ridiculous point). How have we got here, and what do people who think like this want, and why? (So much to discuss, analyse, pick apart). I want to discuss this, sense check it, see what other people make of it. We’re all still figuring out what the reaction is.

So some topics get more traction because they’re new, they can be upsetting, and women often want to discuss them much more than “established” feminist topics, because there’s a lot more to say.

yes!!

Needs repeating over and over!

women often want to discuss them much more than “established” feminist topics, because there’s a lot more to say.

Not only that, but the call to activate on issues is so important to me. I would much rather read about issues and get up to speed and then work out how I can contribute in any way. Even if it is a letter, a submission, a few pounds, or some other skills.

Not only more to say but these issues are current and every day there's a new development. Think how quickly we went from the Keira Bell hearing to Stonewall attacking on the conversion therapy front — suddenly people who've never heard of conversation therapy are trying to get their heads around is and wanting to discuss it.

I have to go out now, so haven't had time to check. Has TheThermalStair and any of the posters who popped up to say they shared her view actually started any new threads?

@CuriousaboutSamphire thanks for your well-meaning message. It's not that I'm clueless about these issues and have shot my mouth off, in fact. It's that because I have gradually drifted away from the FWR board (and from MN entirely for a time) I've obviously missed some of these specific board related matters (including the "new rules" etc). So - I guess you're right I'm a bit clueless about all the details of what's been happening inside MN on matters of who can say what where, but not on the issues overall, IYSWIM.

@TheThermalStair

"you can't expect to unilaterally change the focus of the feminist board"

Well I do realise that as I am just one person. I do wonder if the regular posters from 5 or 10 years ago are still here now and have all decided that GC stuff is the number one focus, or if the GC stuff has brought in a different lot of people and some of the old feminist crowd (or newcomers who would be interested in other feminist stuff) have just melted away.

It is called "feminism chat", but is actually "gender critical chat" if you glance down the list of threads.

In my RL feminist group probably only about one person in five or so was very interested in GC issues, so I'm intrigued about why it's different on here.

Coming in to this thread late. But from my perspective, as an older woman who has been involved in feminist drives all of my life @TheThermalStair, trans ideology is one of the biggest threats to women I have ever seen.

This movement is re-defining what a woman is. And trying to even define what a female is.

You could look at it this way. What is the point of feminism and indeed a feminism chat group on a forum primarily for women if the word 'woman' includes males?

[quote TheThermalStair]@CuriousaboutSamphire thanks for your well-meaning message. It's not that I'm clueless about these issues and have shot my mouth off, in fact. It's that because I have gradually drifted away from the FWR board (and from MN entirely for a time) I've obviously missed some of these specific board related matters (including the "new rules" etc). So - I guess you're right I'm a bit clueless about all the details of what's been happening inside MN on matters of who can say what where, but not on the issues overall, IYSWIM.[/quote]
My advice would be don’t post the biscuit emoji on FWR...

You can do it on all the other boards

Just not FWR

@Shedbuilder

Not only more to say but these issues are current and every day there's a new development. Think how quickly we went from the Keira Bell hearing to Stonewall attacking on the conversion therapy front — suddenly people who've never heard of conversation therapy are trying to get their heads around is and wanting to discuss it.

I have to go out now, so haven't had time to check. Has TheThermalStair and any of the posters who popped up to say they shared her view actually started any new threads?

Boo @Shedbuilder you can just ask me you know. I've only started one so far due to family illness and other stressful life stuff. It's not a measure of anything. Have chipped in on a few others. I wasn't trying to start a fight so I haven't been trying to win it. Presumably if I'd started LOADS of threads that also wouldn't have gone well.

And i know i harp on about the biscuit

I’ll be here in 20 years time and all the youngsters will be going what is rufustheelderlyreindeer on about now and I’ll be all ‘BISCUITS!!!’

Rufus

Shedbuilder

I agree that it is a quickly changing field and that every change is discussed with a great deal of expertise from all views here. I value that expertise greatly.

Which makes it an excellent resource to find backstories and to get a different perspective. MN is NOT a hive mind, but it is a lively and dynamic forum with many different professions and experiences represented.

Thermal has started a new thread about something that interests her and that is great. And it shows that feminism covers many, many different aspects of women's lives, and that each of us have completely different priorities in life and what we believe is important, and this board is the place for them all...

Me too. It’s literally the only place I am allowed to discuss these things. In real life, i risk losing my livelihood

This should tell the OP, and anyone else, everything they need to know.

You, a woman, talking about what a woman is, is deemed offensive enough to be fired.

I hope the OP, and anyone else, realises that hiding, shunting off, siloing, whatever you want to call it, this issue, is a massive, potentially catastrophic mistake.

I've only started one so far due to family illness and other stressful life stuff. It's not a measure of anything.

Right. Which could also explain why the board has topics that are reacting to many immediate concerns. As Shedbuilder has mentioned.

At the moment, with all the things happening quickly particularly in areas where policies are being made and finalised, and many of us are involved in trying to ensure that the needs of females are actually considered in full, as well as deal with our own needs and our family's needs, with the added complexity of being in a pandemic, it does leave little time for other discussions.

This is the only place I can discuss this issue too. I’d be sacked from my job if they knew my views. My organisation is funded by a full on ‘TWAW we only record gender’ local authority.

In the 21st century the definition of women includes men - it’s utterly insane

It’s literally the only place I am allowed to discuss these things. In real life, i risk losing my livelihood.

Me too. And I have a transman niece, so can't talk about this openly within my wider family.

Pole thank you for what you do.

I dont agree with all the feminists on here all the time and Im sure no-one else does either, but Im really pleased to have found this little space of sanity. Reading a post this morning about how people invited for cervical screening shouldnt be called "women" any more just re-enforces how central this issue has become. And I would like to add a thank you to *Pole" too.

Thank you ChattyLion, Im based in the US (I hope that doesnt make my contributions less valid) and I spend as much of my time lobbying as I can spare, which is sadly less than I would like. I am fortunate in that our funders and directors, by an overwhelming majority, are old money republican types, and whilst they are no friend to womens rights, they do not buy into any of the gender identity issues either (and cannot be swayed), which is a mercy, albeit a very small one. Despite what may be heard, most senior HCPs here are aghast at the thought of having men in womens spaces, services etc, and there is a huge push back against it. Unhelpfully it is usually down to protecting the "virtue" of ladies, which does make it harder to get support for the particular work I do, but it is a small source of comfort in that at least I can hold the line and try to guarantee a safe space for my patients and staff.

I have many close friends working in the NHS is the same field (I worked in the UK for a number of years), with the same struggles with understaffing, having to remain past retirement/full time when they should be part time, working when they really should not be for their own health related reasons. I have sent some emails and will see if they can try again to get MPs to listen, I have also forwarded the consultation to all of my UK based friends and colleagues.

Apologies for the brevity of this, I am tired (time differences arent fun!) and dont have much time on my hands at the minute.

Thank you to all of the women here who do so much to lobby and contribute, to push back and make a difference, it does make mine and my colleagues jobs easier (wherever we are in the world), especially as we know that we do not stand alone in all this, and there is considerable solace in that

And thank you all also for listening. This is one of the very few spaces left on the internet where women will listen and can openly discuss.

Pole, is there anything we can do to help? Is there a campaign or awareness raising of the need for women in this role?

I will be responding to the govt's consultation on women's health, I will mention the need for the kind of surgery you provide and for it to be from females.

Also, no need to respond right now, just read the bit about being tired!

I'm just catching up and want to say to Pole what an amazing job you do. Just so heartbreaking that it's needed.

Do you mind if I save some of your posts? They are painful but powerful and should be reposted and read by as many people as possible.

Fair play, The ThermalStair, but several other people turned up to say how much they agreed with you. Have any of them started new threads or did they just agree with you because they hoped you'd get GC/ trans issues hidden away?

And grrrr to autocorrect, which converted conversion therapy to conversation therapy.

Pole ...sleep well , good woman .

Thanks Arabella. We havent tended to run public campaigns, as in the past the inquiries, shall we say, from groups who want us to expand who our patients are, or people who want to enter the field for the wrong reasons/to pursue their own agendas increase exponentially afterwards. I think the most important thing is providing single sex spaces where women know they go and receive help. Many women fall through the cracks and dont seek help if they can`t be assured of this.

All the ongoing work on ensuring these rights to spaces are upheld in law is absolutely fundamental, and perhaps the most important thing is spreading the word and making sure as many women as possible understand what`s at stake, so there are more people to speak up, more people to push back and more to ensure laws are upheld.

Continuity of care is also crucial, our patients are most often in a critical condition when they come to us, but we make sure that we are on hand before, during and after to answer any questions, listen to them and offer what support we can. I spend time with each patient and talk them through it, as it can be so traumatic to be operated on and the surgeon has only taken a few seconds to say hello, if that, or you never see them again, or they are brief and dismissive. That one took a lot of fighting for, but taking that extra time is vital, I feel, especially in settings such as ours.

As an aside I would also like to see HCPs being called by their first names by patients, referring to "Ms xyz" or "Dr abc" puts up barriers at a time when women and girls need to feel supported by other women, it feels needlessly divisive and callous.

So that is a rambling way I suppose of saying I think the best thing is to continue as we are for the time being. Halting the normalisation of "kink", BDSM, rough sex, porn et al would go a huge way towards helping, thought that feels like a task similar to moving a mountain, and again whilst the gender identity issues are at the forefront that fire has to be extinguished first.

Thank you Dial, and no I don`t mind at all, though there are many far more eloquent than me on here.