Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

OP
What makes you an 'ordinary feminist' but the issues on this board, not? Who gets to see decide what is ordinary?

You, and not the women on this board, I'm guessing.

Pole thank you

Pole

Thank you all, and my apologies - the rough sex/bdsm is a particular soap box of mine.

The need for it truly is heartbreaking, I had semi-retired, and gone down to on call for difficult cases/as and when I was needed, but its not a glamourous field, or a popular one, and compared to other surgical specialities does not pay anywhere near as well, not to mention you cant just switch off easily at the end of the day, and so Ive gone back to full time.

I have found it increasingly difficult to remain on the sidelines of these issues as my own daughters get older, DD1 is mid teens now, and it hits home all the harder. The thought of my daughters dating, and the revolting attitudes of a lot of men which are becoming ever more normalised makes me sick to my stomach.

I have two Muslim residents, both extremely promising surgeons and astoundingly caring women, both of whom have sadly suffered sexual violence themselves, and both of whom want to work in the field, neither will be able to if we cannot guarantee female only spaces.

The recent issues surrounding self id transwomen campaigning that they should be entitled to conduct intimate exams on female rape victims peaked me way out of the galaxy. I am usually extremely calm, but my rage is still simmering over that one.

Can't thank you enough for the work you do Pole.

Thank you HecatesCat I appreciate it, though no thanks are necessary. I cannot say I love my work, it would seem wrong and tone deaf to describe it in such a way, but I am glad I do it, if that makes sense, and I have had the honour of meeting some absolutely amazing women whose strength and courage is far beyond anything I would have imagined possible.

If we agree to removal of correct language to discuss being female and define who we are then there will be nothing to discuss in the future.. , being female will have been relegated to stereotypes and costumes.

Bit like saying I'll have the blood transfusion to save my life after I've trimmed my toenails. Somethings have to take priority .

Until people are confident to stand up and say they won't tolerate their language being curtailed to suit a political ideology, then more discussion needs to happen, not less..

@PoleToPole that must be a heartbreaking job but thank you for helping those poor women and girls

@PoleToPole

Thank you all, and my apologies - the rough sex/bdsm is a particular soap box of mine.

The need for it truly is heartbreaking, I had semi-retired, and gone down to on call for difficult cases/as and when I was needed, but its not a glamourous field, or a popular one, and compared to other surgical specialities does not pay anywhere near as well, not to mention you cant just switch off easily at the end of the day, and so Ive gone back to full time.

I have found it increasingly difficult to remain on the sidelines of these issues as my own daughters get older, DD1 is mid teens now, and it hits home all the harder. The thought of my daughters dating, and the revolting attitudes of a lot of men which are becoming ever more normalised makes me sick to my stomach.

I have two Muslim residents, both extremely promising surgeons and astoundingly caring women, both of whom have sadly suffered sexual violence themselves, and both of whom want to work in the field, neither will be able to if we cannot guarantee female only spaces.

The recent issues surrounding self id transwomen campaigning that they should be entitled to conduct intimate exams on female rape victims peaked me way out of the galaxy. I am usually extremely calm, but my rage is still simmering over that one.

For a person who is reasonably articulate, sometimes, quite a lot actually, I just don't have any bloody words.

Everything you are saying is resonating.

Thank you @IAmFleshIAmBone, yes, it is heartbreaking and also enraging, every woman on our team has themselves been a victim of male sexual violence and has fought through a difficult path to get to where they are. I do not think this is a speciality anyone would choose unless they had experienced it themselves.
I am very fortunate to work as part of a team with such strong women, who have experienced such crippling fear and horror, but who still have kindness and compassion to spare, and who can still find happiness. It sounds almost twee and crass to say their dedication humbles me, but it does, and I don`t mean it in that insta-virtue signalling way.

Thank you Fernlake. It shouldn`t be like this, it feels so much like we are going backwards. I despair for my DDs (who are both v GC) and I try very hard to continually shore up their self esteem and boundaries, but at the minute I feel like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.

I`m a surgeon, my speciality is repairing damage from sexual violence inflicted on women and girls by men, all of our specialist team are female as it would cause undue distress to our already severely traumatised patients if we were not.

About half of our patients are prostitutes (or rough sex/BDSM gone horribly wrong - seeing more and more of that) and the other half are rape/sexual assault victims. Usually the patients in the first category also fall into the second.

This so shocking and can only say how wonderful PoleToPole that you are there for these women.

But wonder, if you felt able, to somehow make the reality of your work known. All those people who talk about sex work is work, and promote BDSM. As with so many other areas of life, including marriage. It should be alright but the prevelance of male violence means it is can not be.

So many young women seem to have totally absorbed the male twist on women's "liberation" and also seem to revel in condeming anyone who questions them as being old 70s feminists who should be ignored and insulted.

They need to be confronted by the reality. Not the male fantasy they are fed and accept.

Thank you for posting.

Although I disagree with the opening post suggestion this thread has actually been refreshingly good as an exchange of ideas without too much pathetic goading.sniping and it's been great to hear about the evolution of FWR and get some eye-opening (but jaw-dropping) input from those such as pole.

Thank you again PoleToPole for this:

The recent issues surrounding self id transwomen campaigning that they should be entitled to conduct intimate exams on female rape victims peaked me way out of the galaxy. I am usually extremely calm, but my rage is still simmering over that one.

And this:

We need to be able to ensure that women have access to womens` services and spaces (and sports) first and foremost, and to do that we need to be able to be clear on what a woman is. Everything else is immaterial in comparison.

I’ve added a new thread on a recent story from Canada where a women who has exited prostitution was volunteering at a women’s shelter. And following 2 complaints from people who had read her private facebook page she was sacked by the male HR for being transphobic.

“ … In her time at the women’s agency, she saw four different men taking beds for extended periods of time at the women’s shelter, which turns down between 10 - 12 women per day on average. One of the men who took a woman’s spot, she claims, wasn’t even trans-identified. “They are literally occupying women’s spaces,” she said. “The reason why I defend this is because I feel women deserve sex-specific services and they’re being eroded.”

We have somehow got to get this madness to stop. How can this not be a priority. Feminism isn’t have dinner party exchanges on interesting topics. It is about women’s lives being put on the line. And nobody in power is doing anything to stop it.

Yes I used the old MN chestnut "ODFOD", tbh it's in such current use on here I almost think of it as its own word like YANBU and LTB.

Women have been deleted for using it on FWR.

PoletoPole thank you so much for the crucial work that you do

Thank you stumbledin, we try to make it known, my colleagues and I have given many talks in high schools (age appropriate talks, obviously) and universities, we all speak out on forums/social media when we can, and we have some additional avenues too, but we do have to be careful as it is important that whatever we do does not compromise the privacy, dignity and trust of our patients, and so we are always careful.

It is not an easy balance to strike, and all too often we am dismissed as "Karens" ranting on and trying to spoil the cool girls fun . It is a very hard message to get across.

As an aside, I have never yet met a prostitute who wants to be called a sex worker, and so I default to the term prostitute (apologies if that is offensive to anyone) I also have yet to meet a single one who does not hate what they do with every fibre of their being.

Are dismissed, sorry, not am dismissed.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes I used the old MN chestnut "ODFOD", tbh it's in such current use on here I almost think of it as its own word like YANBU and LTB.

Women have been deleted for using it on FWR.

Feel free to report it, I’m sure I’ll survive

@CardinalLolzy

Although I disagree with the opening post suggestion this thread has actually been refreshingly good as an exchange of ideas without too much pathetic goading.sniping and it's been great to hear about the evolution of FWR and get some eye-opening (but jaw-dropping) input from those such as pole.

Yes it’s been a really interesting debate, lots to think about and learn

Thank you Ereshkigalangcleg, and thank you yourself, and all of the other FWR regulars who have helped to give so much sunlight to these issues, and provide so much information. It is a steep learning curve (or it was for me at least), but a vital one, one which has expanded my perspective enormously.

Yes I used the old MN chestnut "ODFOD", tbh it's in such current use on here I almost think of it as its own word like YANBU and LTB. Sorry if I offended anyone with my unladylike conduct.

I am surprised you used it on this board. I quite often think it's appropriate but don't use it because, if reported, it would get deleted as uncivil, not in the spirit.

Because when discussing women's rights we have to be ever so polite.

That's how much our speech has been policed over the last few years, normal Mumsnet sweariness will get you a ban here.

And that gives you some idea of how important these threads are.

Woman means adult human female.

That's now considered a controversial statement that needs shutting down.

It's terrifying.

Feel free to report it, I’m sure I’ll survive

You do know there's a strike rule that if you have several deletions within a few weeks you get banned?

@Fernlake... for your post at 11.53 yesterday .

I haven't seen that acronym on MN for years! Now I come to think of it.

Which does suggest that OP has been on here for a fair old while.

OP in reality - not what you hope but in reality. If anything 'GC' is to be put on another board. What that could mean for posting on the main board?

When using the words woman/ girl to mean female is a 'dogwhistle'. Also 'sex based oppression' and 'male violence' are considered indicators of transphobic. Then they will be reported/ moved according to the GC goes over there rule, surely.

What are you hoping will happen. And what do you think could actually happen?

This board has been attacked by MRAs, f4j, I seem to remember a bunch of chaps from... Can't remember. A predominantly male website of some sort. That one turned quite friendly IIRC! There have been ddos attacks. And now we have the monitors.

I don't know who carried out the real life situation, I'm sure you know the one I mean. But no doubt in my mind it was an angry man of some sort.

I think your idea it will go back to how it was is naive.

And how it was when?
It's always been criticised. Always. Whatever form it's been in over the years, stacks of posters have said get board is awful.

You do know there's a strike rule that if you have several deletions within a few weeks you get banned?

It’s not even several, it’s three. A special rule just for the feminists.